Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

[seamusTX]

what's this??? Some kind of sideways insult????

I meant it as advice.

There are many inexpensive ways to ensure that someone breaking into your home generates a lot of noise for at least 30 seconds before getting in. For one, there's a mutt from the animal shelter that costs maybe $50 to bring home and will be eternally grateful to you.

Here's a wireless alarm system that can be installed in an apartment without drilling holes or stringing wire: http://www.guardcom.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have no experience with that system, but I have something similar.

- Jim

[03Lightningrocks]

what's this??? Some kind of sideways insult????

I meant it as advice.

There are many inexpensive ways to ensure that someone breaking into your home generates a lot of noise for at least 30 seconds before getting in. For one, there's a mutt from the animal shelter that costs maybe $50 to bring home and will be eternally grateful to you.

Here's a wireless alarm system that can be installed in an apartment without drilling holes or stringing wire: http://www.guardcom.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have no experience with that system, but I have something similar.

- Jim

Oh...sorry...I took it like you were saying I was some kind of dip finkle or something. My post above was just a what if like others here. I have an alarm system that would go bananas if anyone entered my home so it would be a pretty dramatic moment as I leap from my bed and grab my handgun off the night stand, alarm siren screaming like a jet engine. If they were still in my house after all that commotion ... I would blast them out of fear.

Point is....if anyone was to be in my house....it would flip me out way past the point of saying..."halt, in the name of the law!". I don't have police training and don't feel the need to behave as an officer of the law.

[flintknapper]

It is inconceivable to me that a judge wouldn't throw such a suit out of court. You're in your home, minding your own business, and a burglar enters? He's darn lucky if he doesn't get shot - and if it's at night, you're well within your rights to shoot first and ask questions later. If I hold an intruder at gunpoint until the police arrive, and it is my home, I expect the police to say "job well done, we'll take it from here," and never hear about it again until I appear as a witness at the BG's trial. If not, I'll make mincemeat in the local press out of the judge, the prosecutor, and the perp.

I'm not havin' it.

Exactly how it played out when my older brother and I held a guy at gun point until the police arrived. It wasn't even in my home....(parking lot of an apartment complex). We caught some guy breaking into my truck, retrieved our pistols from an apt. we shared....then approached from two different angles as he was leaning inside the passenger side window.

The guy was HAPPY to comply with my every order....until the police arrived (5 cars at once). They had NO PROBLEM with us whatsoever. My brothers girlfriend had "called in" the report and given a description of us (the good guys) and what was happening.

That was 30 yrs. ago, but I doubt things would be too much different today. Kudos to Austin PD!

[shootthesheet]

My point was that if the BG wanted to leave I would let him/her. I don't want to shoot anyone and I don't want to deal with being forced to do so. That said I would shoot someone without warning when I found them in my house so it really doesn't matter. I don't want to ever have to but I am not going to give anyone willing to break into my house any advantage at all. They want to run they can. I really don't care what the law states because it is a matter of life and death. Everything else is meaningless compared to the life of my family.

This is in response to SeamusTX post on March 22. This was posted April 6 and I think SeamusTX for this information.

[HGWC]

One of the things that strikes me about this conversation is that just getting scared off doesn't mean they won't come back. As I understand, if you're robbed once, they commonly come back again. I'd be inclined to not let them leave until the cops arrive, especially if it was at night. I understand the mentality, but I'd have a hard time living with myself if the guy caused me or my neighbors any further problems if I was holding the guy at gunpoint, and then let him go. That's why the law is written the way it is.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

HGWC:
It seems that a relatively small number of BG's commit a large
quantity of crimes.

So for every BG that's captured or killed,
a large number of future crimes are prevented.

Thin the herd.

[Aggie_engr]

Home invasion is a tough one. My plan if it occures during the day would be dependent on the actions of the perp. If they have a weapon and show signs of aggressiveness/advancement, I'll . If they are of the cowardly type that drops to ground like a girl screaming don't shoot me, I might try to cuff them and hold them till the cops show up. Nighttime is a new can of worms. I would definately advise a security system. If they still don't leave after that goes off, I don't really know what I would do besides barricade myself in a room, gun trained on the door. I don't have a family of my own so I know different people are under different circumstances than I, whereas they would feel inclined to search the house for the perp/perps to protect their family. Whichever the case, I do not believe that there is one solid gold plan for everyone to follow, but rather defined case by case based on ones abilities and what they feel is right.

p.s. Cuffs are relatively cheap. Picked up a nice pair of Smith&Wessons from the gun show for around $30.

[Aggie_engr]

On a side note, I probably wouldn't try to hold someone out in public, as it is necessary for it to be a felony to be able to intervene. From what I can make out, a wrongful arrest could occure on your part if is not a felony taking place. I do not want to chance it. If they are an immediate threat, then I will shoot to stop it. Otherwise if the perp runs off then so be it.

In another scenario, say someone breaks into your home and in the process of confronting them could you yell at them to get on the ground and put your hands behind your back, you're under arrest without impersonating a police officer? After all you are making a lawful arrest and it might give them the impression that you are somewhat of a law enforcement figure and stop someone from running when they otherwise would not have stopped for the ordinary citizen? I.e. oh it's the cops, better stop and do what he tells me to.

[seamusTX]

Hinting to a criminal who is committing a crime (which he most likely is if he is in your house without your permission) that you are a police officer is not "impersonating an officer."

However, letting someone think that you are a police officer is a two-edged sword. The criminal might yield to your perceived authority. OTOH, he might be so desperate to avoid arrest that he attacks you recklessly.

Also, some criminals have an irrational hatred of police and will attack them for no reason, even when they should know that they will be caught.

- Jim

[ClarkLZeuss]

After he/she is disarmed then go to low ready then loudly and with authority ask him/her "Do not move! Stay where you are! I have called the cops, stay where you are!" Do not point the gun at him/her and don't say a word about shooting them if they move.

Restraint has a broad definition in Texas law:

PC 20.01(1) "Restrain" means to restrict a person's movements without consent, so as to interfere substantially with the person's liberty, by moving the person from one place to another or by confining the person. Restraint is "without consent" if it is accomplished by:
(A) force, intimidation, or deception; or...

Telling someone not to move, with an implied threat of using a weapon, is restraint. It is lawful in this case.

It seems, then, that it wouldn't matter whether or not you have a gun pointed at the bad guy? If your gun is drawn, it might as well be pointed at him? My thinking has always been to loudly use the most forceful and threatening language I could come up with to get them to lay down and be still, all while keeping my 9mm trained on the bad guy. As someone said, leave no doubt in the criminal's mind that you will shoot him immediately if he doesn't comply. I would much rather walk away from a situation where I restrained, then had the cops arrest, an intruder, as opposed to killing him outright. Even if there was a resultant civil suit against this "restraint," it would be much less costly than a civil suit against homicide, and AKAIK the castle doctrine would cause both to be thrown out.

Tactically, this would work best only if the criminal isn't armed (with a gun) -- or if he is, only if you can surprise him from behind. But IMO I think it is the best course of action, legally, to try and restrain first, shoot second. Because if I do end up shooting someone, I think the DA/jury will be much more on my side if they see that I first gave the criminal a chance to end things peacefully. You gotta think about the long-term consequences like this, because even if you live, you might go to jail. Or even if you get off the hook, you might get sued. And jail, or a long-drawn out lawsuit, would also take me away from my family...not as much as death, sure, but still.

[seamusTX]

IANAL, but I think the possibility of a criminal suing you for unlawful restraint is close to zero. I am not at all concerned about it.

If someone has behaved in such a way as to justify the use of deadly force, especially committing burglary, he is almost certainly going to plead or be found guilty of something. Then, he won't have a legal leg to stand on, because the restraint was lawful.

Even if he somehow is not convicted of a crime, his damages are trivial.

People who sue stores for unlawful restraint occasionally get a lot of money because the defendant has deep pockets and a jury is sympathetic. Most individuals cannot be sued for enough to make it worthwhile.

- Jim

[03Lightningrocks]

......If they are of the cowardly type that drops to ground like a girl screaming don't shoot me,......

....I don't know why, but the visual makes me laugh.

[LarryH]

<snip> If they are of the cowardly type that drops to ground like a girl screaming don't shoot me, I might try to cuff them and hold them till the cops show up. <snip>
p.s. Cuffs are relatively cheap. Picked up a nice pair of Smith&Wessons from the gun show for around $30.

It has been mentioned before on this forum that LEOs are strongly advised to be very careful while cuffing a suspect/perp/unsub/whatever. It's too easy for the perp to turn the tables on a solo LEO trying to apply cuffs while keeping him/her covered. It's even possible for him/her to monkey up the process in which one LEO does the cuffing while his/her partner covers the perp, unless they've practiced it extensively.

IMHO. YMMV.

[Aggie_engr]

Aggie_engr wrote:
......If they are of the cowardly type that drops to ground like a girl screaming don't shoot me,......

i.e. some kid???

Aggie_engr wrote:
<snip> If they are of the cowardly type that drops to ground like a girl screaming don't shoot me, I might try to cuff them and hold them till the cops show up. <snip>

Still thinking it over. I have definately put thought into the dangers involved.

[KD5NRH]

Hinting to a criminal who is committing a crime (which he most likely is if he is in your house without your permission) that you are a police officer is not "impersonating an officer."

How do you figure?

PC37.11. IMPERSONATING PUBLIC SERVANT. (a) A person commits an offense if he:
(1) impersonates a public servant with intent to induce another to submit to his pretended official authority or to rely on his pretended official acts; or
(2) knowingly purports to exercise any function of a public servant or of a public office, including that of a judge and court, and the position or office through which he purports to exercise a function of a public servant or public office has no lawful existence under the constitution or laws of this state or of the United States.
(b) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree.

The way I read it, falsely implying in any way that you are a public servant of any type in order to obtain submission to your authority is unconditionally illegal.
(a)(2) means you can't even hint that you're a Special Agent of the Federal Mattress Inspection Division.