Can of worms to open here

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

Should CHL holders demonstrate better proficiency with their sidearms?

CHL holders should have range qualifications annually (same as standard CHL qualification)
14
9%
CHL holders should have range qualification more often than once a year (same as standard CHL qualification)
2
1%
CHL holders should have a more stringent range qualification exam
21
13%
CHL holders should demonstrate they are capable of field-stripping their sidearm as part of their CHL exam
16
10%
The system is fine as it is and it isn't broken, don't try and fix it
62
39%
The system could use other improvements not provided as an option (please explain)
28
17%
I am unsure of which options to choose
2
1%
The questions aren't well phrased and cannot vote in good conscience
11
7%
I have no opinion
5
3%
 
Total votes: 161


Topic author
yahoshua
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#31

Post by yahoshua »

cbr600 wrote:When I moved to Texas last year, I went to a local DPS office, gave them my NC DL, paid the fee and received a temporary TX DL that was valid immediately. DPS mailed the plastic DL within a week or two.

Compare that quick, simple and inexpensive process to the flaming circus hoops I had to jump through to get a TX CHL.
I know. I moved here to texas last October and am going through the same ordeal. And as much as I wish it were that easy to get a CHL it just isn't the reality we're facing on the ground right now, but it's something to work toward. (Actually, dispensing with the CHL license as a whole would be a better idea).


I know.......I'm a walking contradiction

HankB
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#32

Post by HankB »

I take the class to comply with the legislated requirement - I do not get anything out of renewal classes.

Seriously.

In a typical class, something like 95% of the material is pure common sense or consists of legislative idiosyncracies you ought to be able to pick up just by reading (or even skimming) the DPS literature, and the other 5% is mis-stated by the instructor. The written test is easy to pass. Ditto the shooting test.

I can see a plausible argument for a new picture, but my fingerprints don't change between renewals.

If anything, renewal should be like renewing a driver's license, perhaps with a NICS check added. Wasting more of my time, adding more "busywork" and expense is not something I would support.
Original CHL: 2000: 56 day turnaround
1st renewal, 2004: 34 days
2nd renewal, 2008: 81 days
3rd renewal, 2013: 12 days

Liko81
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#33

Post by Liko81 »

yahoshua wrote:A frequent problem I come across with CHL holders (and customers in general) is that customers and CHL holders generally do not know how to field strip their sidearms, are unsure of how the sidearm even functions, and/or have horrible range accuracy. The worst ones are those who have a hard time figuring out which end the cartridge faces in the magazine or of how to clear a malfunction in their sidearm, or they are puzzled when I tell them their sidearm is dirty and needs to be cleaned and they look at me like I'd just slapped them in the face. It then comes out that they'd NEVER field-stripped their firearm nor have they ever cleaned it. I found this to be both frustrating and infuriating all the same (and keep in mind that these peoples' vote counts just as much as mine or yours does).


Sadly, I find Law Enforcement Officers to be lumped into this group as well and have chewed out (on more than one occasion) that LEOs' will be depending on their sidearm for emergency situation that they are likely to find themselves in. And if they weren't willing to be proficient with their duty weapon and are incapable of passing the dept. qualification test the first time around then they obviously need to be practicing more or riding a desk or to get out of the force.


I tried to think of ways to efficiently correct this problem and the solution I came up with was two-fold.

1. Make cleaning and field-stripping a firearm part of the New/Renewal CHL courses and drive it into these peoples' skulls so they'll get it the first time around and not from me when I hand them the repair bill.

2. Make range qualifications, at a minimum, an annual event in order to drive the concept into these people that if you want to keep your CHL you WILL be proficient with your sidearm. A double-whammy would be an exam in which the applicant will field strip the firearm in front of the instructor and re-assemble it.

This would help (though not necessarily guarantee) ensure that people are aware of HOW to maintain their firearm and that they are willing to invest the time necessary to be proficient with it.


As much as I hate the idea of "mandating" a requirement like this, I'm coming from the perspective that I expect people to know the basics of handling their sidearm and how to maintain it. So am I being reasonable in what I'm asking for or is this considered "too much" for the average person to handle? (I better shutup before I go off on a tangent)


What's your opinion?
My opinion is that if a gun owner is unwilling to maintain proficiency with a weapon, either on the firing line or on the cleaning bench, they should not have one. A gun they cannot use effectively or cannot maintain is a danger to themselves and to others; Either the shooter will fail, or the gun will.

That being said, do I think the State of Texas or anyone else should attempt to enforce my opinion? No. Never. Not even if my opinion is shared by everyone on this board. I already think that requiring application, registration and proficiency tests to conceal a weapon are overstepping the State's bounds. I have studied State law, I know my weapons inside and out, I can field-strip my carry pistol blindfolded (doesn't mean I can do it quickly :roll: ) and I practice with it on a regular basis (or try to; gas and ammo prices have made trips to the range more expensive and therefore less frequent in recent months). I would continue to do so even if Texas allowed unlicensed open carry tomorrow.

I do understand why Texas has these requirements; I am not every Texas gun owner, and after hearing stories about some of the applicants and their merry mishaps during qualifying, I have to admit that there may well be a demonstrated need for Texas to require qualification. Doesn't mean I agree with it costing $250 (average cost of course plus app fee) to get government permission to exercise a Constitutional right. I think the process of getting a CHL should be as similar as possible to getting/renewing a DL; you pay an instructor for an hour's time to oversee your qualification ($50 bux if that), take your proof of qualification to the DPS, fill out the paperwork, take the written test, get fingerprinted, pay $25 and they'll run the background check and send you the card a couple weeks later. Heck, with NICS a background check takes minutes, and the improvements to the system ostensibly mean that they won't find anything more by digging through any other database (that is of course why they put the system in place and then reformed it so it would be current and accurate), so they could give you a temporary card before you leave the DPS office, and if they REALLY wanted to run the FBI check they could do so before issuing plastic.
Last edited by Liko81 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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yahoshua
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#34

Post by yahoshua »

Liko81 wrote: Doesn't mean I disagree with it costing $250 (average cost of course plus app fee) to get government permission to exercise a Constitutional right.
It should be a "Jiffy-Lube Special" only $10, under 15 minutes, and valid for life unless revoked for conviction of violent or repeated crimes.

But then how do we get these people to be interested (if not at least aware) of how to maintain their firearms?

maybe I'm just asking the impossible here........

Topic author
yahoshua
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#35

Post by yahoshua »

tbranch wrote:
mr.72 wrote:So the whole class requirement, IMHO, serves no real purpose.
If there's a place to improve the existing range test, simply force students to handle, load, clear, and shoot. If they cannot do it properly or safely, fail them. Once they acquire the appropriate skills, let them take the range portion of the test so they can move forward with the CHL process.

Tom

As far as this goes, the instructors don't fail the student for unsafe or being incapable of loading their firearm. And should the student fail to pass the shooting portion (it happens once in awhile and it's ALWAYS a new shooter), they have 2 more attempts to pass. They can't do it the same day but I think they have to wait a week in between testing.

mr.72
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#36

Post by mr.72 »

yahoshua wrote: But then how do we get these people to be interested (if not at least aware) of how to maintain their firearms?
By "we", do you mean the State of Texas gov't?

I think "we", as in fellow gun owners and CHL holders, encourage people and help them, the same way you would if you wanted them to be interested in how to maintain their car, their home, their physical health, their grooming, whatever other thing it is in life that interests you.

But the state government has no business in this.
non-conformist CHL holder

mr.72
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#37

Post by mr.72 »

What really shocks me about this poll is that far and away more people voted that "the system is fine the way it is", 43%!

I would have guessed less than 10% of this forum's regulars would consider the TX CHL system to be "fine the way it is".
non-conformist CHL holder

dehalter
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#38

Post by dehalter »

The 2A should be my only carry permit. I think all levels of government should keep their hands off of my guns. I have a CHL because I am a law abiding citizen. However, I disagree with this law.

That is why we have a 2A, to keep governments hands OFF of OUR GUNS!

I just wish more people would side with freedom and our Bill of Rights.
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. - Thomas Jefferson

Roshi
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#39

Post by Roshi »

I've carried in FL, NV, SC, and here in Texas. The tests were similar and adequate. Let's leave it the way it is.

tbranch
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#40

Post by tbranch »

dehalter wrote:I just wish more people would side with freedom and our Bill of Rights.
I think you'll find the people on the board believe in the second amendment and RKBA.

While we can continue to work towards more and easier exercise of our freedoms, we have to deal with the politics of our given time. While one can argue we have the right, we have not been able to exercise that right (at least to carry concealed handguns in public) for all that long. We've made great progress in most states.

In the class I took, the instructor had everyone load snap caps into a magazine and then load/clear a weapon. While this seemed like a waste of time, there were several people in the class who had never touched a firearm. BTW, all of them passed the shooting portion.

Personally I have a problem with people carrying firearms who don't have a clue. It's not safe for them or me. If we're going to work on the process, let's use some of the time to cover some of the basics of safe firearms handling. It will be a refresher for many but the first exposure for others. I think we're at a critical point in time with regard to our RKBA and it will not take too many problems for the public and the Brady Bunch to be lobbying to further restrict that right.

Tom
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KBCraig
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#41

Post by KBCraig »

mr.72 wrote:What really shocks me about this poll is that far and away more people voted that "the system is fine the way it is", 43%!
Except for "no opinion", it was the only option that wouldn't increase the difficulty of getting and maintaining a CHL.

mr.72
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#42

Post by mr.72 »

KBCraig wrote:
mr.72 wrote:What really shocks me about this poll is that far and away more people voted that "the system is fine the way it is", 43%!
Except for "no opinion", it was the only option that wouldn't increase the difficulty of getting and maintaining a CHL.
I would have expected this one to get more votes:


"The system could use other improvements not provided as an option (please explain)"

With the "other improvements" being less onerous requirements for getting/maintaining a CHL, or no CHL requirement.

But you are right, the poll seemed to be heavily biased towards either "more government intrusion" or "the same government intrusion".
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tarkus
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#43

Post by tarkus »

My suggested improvement is a lower price. Other states can do new licenses for less than $100.

Also a CHL change of address should cost the same as drivers license change of address. They're both handled by DPS and it sounds like they're printed on the same machines.
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#44

Post by Liberty »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Although I strongly encourage training, I don't think the current range proficiency requirement serves a purpose. I think it should be deleted from the statute, unless it would cause a problem with reciprocity. If we look to states that don't require a demonstration of shooting proficiency as part of their licensing process, we don't see any problems with injuries or deaths because of poor gun handling. I know that in theory a CHL instructor can take poor gun handling skills into consideration, but I don't know if it's ever done and I'm not at all sure it would pass a court challenge. We have a "shall issue" statute and if you can't point to a specific requirement that was not met, then I believe a court is going to order the CHL issued.

I'm against making the test more challenging.

BTW, we may see an effort to change the "one class every ten years" provision in the statute, since DPS really doesn't like it. It will be interesting to see if the bill would return to classes on each 5 year renewal, or if it will propose something more frequent.

Chas.
If DPS presents such a bill could we attach to the bill a reduction of DPS budget into the bill. I'm thinking of the way the employer notification was attached to the parking lot bill last time around. I figure if the DPS has money enough to support lobbying against honest Texans their budget might be a litle more than for the essentials.
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Re: Can of worms to open here

#45

Post by HKUSP45C »

Were it up to me the state mandated "qualification" and "classroom instruction" portion of my exercising a constitutionally protected right would be done away with entirely. 'Course, so would the CHL requirement to carry, if I had my 'druthers.

I just don't think crimes are averted by requiring the law abiding to get a license showing they obey the law.
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