Game warden incident

[Lonegun1894]

KB,
I doubt i'd have gotten the same restraint, especially with some of the comments he made, but no blood, no foul.

Couzin,
I totally agree with you that all LEOs have a dangerous job, and that they do need to be able to remain in control. At least in this case though, I think he was overly forceful. As far as being able to hide the rifle, yes, easily could have, except that the terrain/brush made it impossible to even see the road until you were about 10 feet away so we wouldnt have known he was there. The magazine was empty, and i'm sure he'd have heard gunfire if there had been some. Also, now, any LEOs please step in here as i am not one so am working under an assumption here. As an LEO, when making a stop, I'm assuming most depts have some sort of guidelines as to how to initiate contact with the person being stopped. I opened with "how are you doing, Sir?" and he responded with a threat. I stayed respectful the whole time, or at least thought i did, got harder as things went along. I'm just happy things didnt turn violent cause he had me on edge enough to just react with all the threats he threw around. I totally agree with playing by his rules so he remains in control of a stop, but if you or i are stopped, and we are being respectful and cooperating with him, he's going to get much more cooperation by treating us with at least some respect than he would by acting like the playground bully with a badge and a gun that just hasnt grown up yet. Any LEOs, or anyone else for that matter, have any advice on how to defuse someone like that? I mean, cooperating and being respectful is a given, but any other advice would be very useful for next time--which hopefully isnt gonna happen. Thanks for all the great responses and advice so far.

[txinvestigator]

I think I understand that you are upset that the LEO/Game Warden kinda grilled you there but consider the situation. There was probable cause that you may have seen the GW early and hid your rifle before coming out of the woods.

That is NOT probable cause, that is speculation and what-iffing, and is not enough for an arrest.

There were two of you, one with a carry handgun, and another handgun in the truck/car at the available. The forcefulness of the GW was in all probablity an attempt to make sure he remained in control - they have to - their, and other, lives depend on it. Kudos for remaining reasonably cool. Just remember, they have a dangerous job and not everyone is living by the rules like you. One only needs to review the annual fallen lists to understand why LEOs have to be able to take control through whatever means possible. Sometimes it is all too easy to get offended, or see an officer as being overly forceful, but...

He can be forceful and "in-control" without threatening illegal arrest and hassleing him over legal firearms.

[Lonegun1894]

TXInvestigator,
I think you and i are seeing this almost exactly the same, if not the same. Difference is you know the law much better than i do.

[Greybeard]

OK, I've had time to "sleep on it".

Initially here, I'll mention that it's been at least a year since I purchased the Texas Public Hunting Package and reviewed the booklet of rules and regs. I do recall that on some units that even "possesion" of buckshot is prohibited. But, I certainly do not recall ever seeing anything regarding rifle magazines being an offense. So, you might want to double-check that booklet, the "Special Restrictions" page and in particular, the one for your unit. Also, FWIW, on some of the (Feds) Corps of Engineers Lands, the wording is such that I don't even carry a handgun there.

My suggestion would then be to go to Texas Parks and Wildlife's web site and send an e-mail to the attention of the Law Enforcement Division, simply stating that last bow season you were threatened by a Game Warden with "going to jail" for mere possession of an AR-15 magazine. Ask them (politely) to provide you with any written documentation in the Public Hunting Package booklet, the Outdoor Annual or anywhere else available to the public that "possession" of such magazines is an offense on public lands.

And don't settle for anything less than a written response from someone who gives you a name and title. I suspect there's about a 50/50 chance that a supervisor may get involved. And may request more details (such as who, why, when and where.)

FWIW, last fall one of my hunter ed. students from down that way told me about a really nice buck that was found dead on one popular unit during the first week of bow season. Cause of death: small caliber rifle round. Just a guess that may have still been a burr under the GW's saddle that day ...

Way back in 1978 (when probably I was about your age), my brother and I had an unsavory encounter with an overly-agressive GW (who conspired with an anti-hunting neighbor). Charged us with Criminal Trespass with a Firearm. (If convicted, I probably would not be doing what I am now.) We fought it in court. The facts were so clear that we did not even use a lawyer. 6-man jury in Floydada, Texas promtply determined "Not guilty". And at the end of the ordeal, the Judge's index finger was used for a little "come hither" chit-chat with the GW.

I recently had a CHL guy in the tow truck/repo business tell me about providing all of his drivers with discreet little on-bod recording devices - and he requires them to activate them for all "public contacts". I know that most of us try to pack only bare-bones "necessities" when we go into the woods, but it sounds like ya might just want to drop by a Radio Shack before you go back out there ... Among other things, it might help with maintaining your best behavior.

[gigag04]

I recently had a CHL guy in the tow truck/repo business tell me about providing all of his drivers with discreet little on-bod recording devices - and he requires them to activate them for all "public contacts". I know that most of us try to pack only bare-bones "necessities" when we go into the woods, but it sounds like ya might just want to drop by a Radio Shack before you go back out there ... Among other things, it might help with maintaining your best behavior.

I may be wrong, but I think recording someone w/o notification or consent is ETREMELY illegal. Like I said...I could be wrong.


-nick

[Greybeard]

Have you been stopped for a traffic violation lately? Think at least the big city cops ain't got one runnin'? (Over and above the video on the dash.)

Methinks you may have confused with telephone conversations. Last I knew, in Tejas anyway, legit if at least ONE party knows conversation is being recorded.

[jimlongley]

Have you been stopped for a traffic violation lately? Think at least the big city cops ain't got one runnin'? (Over and above the video on the dash.)

Methinks you may have confused with telephone conversations. Last I knew, in Tejas anyway, legit if at least ONE party knows conversation is being recorded.

I believe that's the case, but it does not apply to interstate calls. I, personally, get a kick out of calling in to banks, etc, who include the message "calls may be recorded for . . ." I routinely record calls and really like it when they grant me permission up front like that.

A while back I was recording a call and the young lady I was dealing with was refusing to refer me to a supervisor, I mentioned that I was doing so to the person who I was recording, she got very upset and ordered me to stop recording. I pointed out that I had advance permission to record the call (If you say it may be recorded, then that gives me permission to do so.) at which point she transferred me to a supervisor, which had been my objective to begin with.

The supervisor then ordered me to stop recording, at which point I repeated that I had been given permission to do so and was not going to give up that permission. She tried to argue that the recorded message that said that the call may be recorded only applied to them, to which my response was that the message didn't say that, and what did she have to say that she was afraid of having recorded anyway?

I have also been known to carry a recorder with me.

[one eyed fatman]

jimlongley your one cool customer.

[Lonegun1894]

You may be dead right about getting that recorder, and last i heard, you can do so as long as at least party knows about it. I know a lot of LE does so, so why cant i? Honestly, i'm not that worried about my behavior, as i try to behave as a habit, but it cant hurt to have that reminder either way. Would have been really nice to have some of his comments on tape though. And that dead buck you mentioned would at least partly account for his attitude. If that is the case though, i guess he thought he was dealing with a poacher. Just love being convicted without even finding out what i was convicted of til months later. I guess it's just a case of d****d if you do, d****d if you dont. Also, hate to tell you this, but when you had that trouble in 78, well, i'm glad itworked out well, but i wasnt even born til 79. Yeah, i'm just a pup compared to some here, nut hopefully yall wont hold that against me too much.

[Greybeard]

Even amongst Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, with age, the brain tends to get much bigger and the balls much smaller.

[Lonegun1894]

Well, i'm not sure if i should be admitting this, but a very good friends dad has been telling both of us since highschool that both of us have a lot more balls than brains. If he's right, it would explain a lot of the things we have done over the years. He also said i have gotten more mature and calculationg, and at the same time worse about it during my time in the military. Great, so now i'm an idiot that plans ahead. Maybe i should ask if that's what he meant...

[glock75]

Ditto on Couzin's remarks. But I have also seen this same attitude and similiar grilling on numerous occasions from other game wardens. Usually the younger ones. I suspect its their way of trying to get you to confess that you really were up to something and that there is hidden game that you left somewhere in the woods that you will come back to later. It actually happens often particulary in east Texas. And as Forrest Gump said....that's all I have to say bout that...

[KBCraig]

This isn't a Game Warden tale, but a Forest Ranger.

My fraternity alumni get together for a campout and reunion every April, at a primitive camping area in north-central Arkansas. We swap tales, drink more than we would in polite company, cook he-man food on the fire, and generally pretend that we haven't gotten 25 years older.

This year will be the 25th Annual Richland Rampage, so we've been at it for a while now. We know how to clean up after ourselves, and we leave the campground in better shape than we find it. We reserve the campground by getting a special use permit from the USFS. We don't mind other people camping while we're there, but having the reservation means they can't complain if we stay up late singing bawdy songs around the fire.

So anyhoo... a few years ago, the rangers stopped through, like they usually do. The older guys know us. They make sure everything's okay, see if we need anything, and drop a gentle reminder about cleaning up. But this time a young hard charger was along, and that badge was so heavy I don't know how he managed to stand up straight. He actually wrote a guy a ticket for "unauthorized deposting of bodily waste" for peeing on a tree!

I guess that answers the question of what bears do in the woods: "unauthorized deposit of bodily waste"!

Remember, this is a wilderness area, reached by unimproved goat trails. There is no electricty. There is no plumbing. There are no hookups, nor even campsites. There is a single pit toilet a couple of hundred yards from where we camp. He found nothing unusual about our dogs hiking their legs on trees, but when it was a person, he wrote him up just as if he'd dumped a holding tank into the creek.

One of the guys had a quiet word with the older ranger, and it all went away. I don't know if it mattered that the ranger's son was a student in this guy's Agri class, but common sense prevailed.

Kevin

[Greybeard]

Fair warning here if anyone here hunts or fishes in Brown county. There's an older one there who is infamous for being comparable to one of the droppings that certain edible fowl leave in the barnyard. The locals even sell a t-shirt that says something to the effect of "I got Leroyed at Brownwood."

He got one of my hunter ed. students a few years ago for "operating an unauthorized motor vechicle in the right of way". The hunter had driven his ATV less than 100 yards down a bar ditch - to get from a farm house to a gate leading into the pasture. (GW said he should have trailered it for the trip.)

My student said as the GW was writing out the little blue love letter, he said "Hey, I recognize your name. They were talking about you in town last night. You even have your own t-shirt!". Said the GW was not at all amused.

Overall, the TX GWs seem to be a great bunch. Especially the younger ones are often overworked and underpaid. The job requires an inordinate number of hours - often in miserable conditions. Unfortunately, it seems to often serve as a "training ground" for LEOs who eventually move on to a better-paying department in order to support a family ...

[Lonegun1894]

Ditto on Couzin's remarks. But I have also seen this same attitude and similiar grilling on numerous occasions from other game wardens. Usually the younger ones. I suspect its their way of trying to get you to confess that you really were up to something and that there is hidden game that you left somewhere in the woods that you will come back to later. It actually happens often particulary in east Texas. And as Forrest Gump said....that's all I have to say bout that...

Ok, here goes. I have "poached" if that is what you choose to call it on several occasions. None of them was inside the US. And it was a matter of running out of MREs before the mission was completed so we supplemented our food supply as needed with plants, animals, and fish. Having said that, I do obey game laws, and wont poach unless i absolutely need to to feed myself or others--at which point in time, i dont see it as poaching but rather as survival. Playing devils advocate here for a second about the GW trying to get a confession. Personally, if i WAS poaching, and had a choice between a rifle and a bow, and knowing i am in a patrolled area, it just seems to make sense to use the quiet weapon--the bow. And considering that at that time and place, i wasnt restricted to bucks, and could take just about any deer i could get in range of, what did i really have to hide if i had shot one? I still have all my tags cause i didnt get one all season, so it isnt that i was out of tags. The worst thing i had done that he could have accused me of was that i didnt get within range of a deer. I think i will email TPWD and get some answers on the regs as was recommended above.