Possible Effective Notice Not Conforming to 30.06

[GrillKing]

In doing some research, I came across the following, that would indicate to me a circumstance where effective notice against concealed carry would not have to conform to the requirements of 30.06. Below is a section of the GC that indicates to me, the non-lawyer, that a hospital or nursing home can give notice with requirements similar to 30.06, but not requiring the exact language of 30.06.

In re-reading 30.06, it describes effective notice, but it also does not exclude other notice. Of course other notice is not enforcable unless it is described elsewhere in the Codes, perhaps as shown below. Again, I'm obviously not a lawyer, but find this very interesting.

Any comments or opinions. I'm continuing to dig, but want to go ahead and post what I have found.

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage
Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business
premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code,
or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety
Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or
nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements
of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign
include on its face the number "51".
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give
notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person
licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises.
The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least
one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed
in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in
a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

[txinvestigator]

That section simply tells the hospitals what they must display. The penal code is where the laws people going in must follow.

If it is not 30.06 compliant, a CHL holder is not subject to obeying it.

[GrillKing]

txinvestigator,

Thanks, after reading your post and re-reading the GC section, it now makes sense to me that this is in fact simply instruction to the institution regarding posting of a sign and has no effect on individuals not associated with the institution. I'm bound by 30.06, period.

What doesn't make sense to me is that the instruction given to the institution is not complete. If they want to prohibit carry, they woud have to use the language in 30.06. If they follow the instruction given in 'GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES', the odds are pretty low they will coincidently get the words required in 30.06 for effective notice correct!

Also, wouldn't 411.024 REQUIRE posting at hospitals and nursing homes? I guess no penaty to them the means no concern to them. I know carry is allowed unless 30.06 posted, so it's not a concern, to me I'm just curious. Perhaps this requirements is superceded elsewhere....

Thanks,

Gary

[Hickeroar]

If i go somewhere and their 30.06 sign has lettering that is 7/8 of an inch high, would this hold up in court as non-compliant or would the judge say "close enough?"

[txinvestigator]

If i go somewhere and their 30.06 sign has lettering that is 7/8 of an inch high, would this hold up in court as non-compliant or would the judge say "close enough?"

Who knows what a judge would say?

I would think that if you said in court that you took your measuring tape out and measured the letters you would not have an easy time.

If the sign meets the proper wording and is close to proper size, then just don't carry there.

[jimlongley]

If i go somewhere and their 30.06 sign has lettering that is 7/8 of an inch high, would this hold up in court as non-compliant or would the judge say "close enough?"

When I called (a whole bunch of people in state government) I finally reached someone who claimed to "have been" an attorney and that "they" (the state) consider coming close to be a good faith effort and that they would prosecute. I asked if that meant that I could do 49 in a 40mph zone, as keeping it in the 40s would be a "good faith effort" and she didn't like the comment. She suggested that I might want to be a test case, and honor I declined.

If I recall correctly, I was referred from DPS CHL people to the Attorney General's office, to the Secretary of State, back to . . . until I got to that young lady back in DPS CHL.

All I wanted to know was who enforces that segment of the law, ie If I spot a non-compliant sign, who do I report it to? Her take was that they ALL comply.

[Hickeroar]

Cool cool. Thanks for the info. I wouldn't go into any business that had a 30.06 even if their lettering was wrong... Well, on top of that, a 30.06 is basically a sign that says to me "don't give this place one more of your dimes." Carrying or not carrying i'm not going in there.

[Kalrog]

I wouldn't go into any business that had a 30.06 even if their lettering was wrong... Well, on top of that, a 30.06 is basically a sign that says to me "don't give this place one more of your dimes." Carrying or not carrying i'm not going in there.

Agreed when possible. Not always possible though (think hospital).

[Hickeroar]

I wouldn't go into any business that had a 30.06 even if their lettering was wrong... Well, on top of that, a 30.06 is basically a sign that says to me "don't give this place one more of your dimes." Carrying or not carrying i'm not going in there.

Agreed when possible. Not always possible though (think hospital).

Well, it's a felony to carry in most (if not all) hospitals anyway so there's nothing you can do about that. The hospital owner had nothing to do with that decision.

[KBCraig]

Well, it's a felony to carry in most (if not all) hospitals anyway so there's nothing you can do about that. The hospital owner had nothing to do with that decision.

[stevie_d_64]

Well, it's a felony to carry in most (if not all) hospitals anyway so there's nothing you can do about that. The hospital owner had nothing to do with that decision.

You know...

Thats going to leave a mark...

[Kalrog]

I wouldn't go into any business that had a 30.06 even if their lettering was wrong... Well, on top of that, a 30.06 is basically a sign that says to me "don't give this place one more of your dimes." Carrying or not carrying i'm not going in there.

Agreed when possible. Not always possible though (think hospital).

Well, it's a felony to carry in most (if not all) hospitals anyway so there's nothing you can do about that. The hospital owner had nothing to do with that decision.

I think you will find that your statement is inaccurate. That is what all of the head banging in the previous 2 posts is about.

My understanding is that a hospital must be posted (30.06 posting) to be off limits to a CHL holder in the state of Texas. Do you have different information and what is its source?

[Hickeroar]

Well, per the instructor in my course, it's kind-of a catch-22 situation. He said it was a felony under the "51" rule until they said that you were allowed to if it didn't have a 30.06 sign.

He said the "51%" sign-wording is displayed and implied when not displayed in hospitals and that it's a felony to go against it.

He said the problem is that the felony trumps the 30.06 decision (in his words) so you can take the risk if you want to (if there's no 30.06 on the hosp door) but if you get caught they can try you at a federal level and skip the state altogether.

In short: he said that breaking the "51" is a felony, breaking the 30.06 is a misdemeanor and we're supposed to be aware that entering a hospital breaks the 51 even if the 51 sign is not posted.

He also said there haven't as-of-yet been any court cases regarding this so no one knows what would happen for sure.


If I or He is in error, i'd like to know it. The hospital where my mother-in-law works is not 30.06 posted...

[txinvestigator]

All I wanted to know was who enforces that segment of the law, ie If I spot a non-compliant sign, who do I report it to? Her take was that they ALL comply.

There is no one who enforces signs that are non-compliant. A non-compliant sign is simply non-enforceable.

[stevie_d_64]

Hickeroar...

Lets take a step back here for a second...Lets keep the 51% signage issue on the back burner, ok?

Lets make sure we are talking only about the situation where your mother-in-law works...In a hospital, where there are 30.06 signs posted at the entrances...

And that you visit on a somewhat frequent basis, correct???

I think you got the idea on what and how the 30.06 sign should look like and where it should be posted...

Obviously the simplest thing is that you have noticed that they (the hospital) have posted it...Thats good that you noticed it...

I think the simplest thing to do is honor the intent of that posting, regardless if it is technically correct or not...And stay away from the argument that if its concealed, whats the harm? I've seen this conversation go that way as well...

I think the simplest thing to do to keep everyone on the straight and narrow is to do what I hate to do, but to keep from getting into trouble...Lets lock that baby up in your vehicle, and not take it into the hospital...

I hate to suggest that, even if some think I am wrong...But if anything the good in this is that you are being very aware to these things, and that in my opinion is a tremendous advantage you have...

You probably won't run into these situations very often, but when you do, you'll know what to do...

Heck I do it (disarm) all the time...Even though I try to avoid places where I have to...I don't like it, and I do question it...And its ok to feel that way...You're in good company...

That whole 51% thing...Lets talk about that later...Lets get this thing ironed out for you, ok?