Drawing a Gun on the Bad Guy

[TXGLOCK29]

I would like to hear from anyone (LEO's as well) who have actually been in a situation where they were forced to draw their weapon in self defense. As CHL's we are prepared, but many of us have never, and hopefully will never, be in a situation where we will need to use our weapon. The only way we can learn how to effectively protect ourselves is to train, and also receive information from those individuals who have had to make that split second desicion in the past. I look forward to hearing from anyone with any experiences so that the rest of us may learn how to protect ourselves more effectively when split second decisions mean the difference between life and death.

[Keith B]

There have been lots of posts on this previously that you can search. Here is one topic http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... &sk=t&sd=a that included a poll.

However, there may be new ones that have not been posted. If so, let's hear them!

[Tactical_Texan_CHL]

I'll post my story. This happened to me last July. This was the first and only time I've ever had to draw my gun. I was working as an agency nurse at the time going to different hospitals and working in their ER's. I worked a 3p-3a shift and was headed home, about 2 hours away.

On the way out of town, about 3:45 in the morning, I needed to get gas, so I stopped at a Town and Country. I was carrying in the hospital as this town in notorious for violence, and the hospital is not posted and I couldn't find any clause prohibiting me from carrying in their employee handbook. I had my Glock 30 IWB on me, and it conceals very well under scrubs using the Clip Draw and a Saf-t-blok. I was very apprehensive about stopping for gas anyway. I should have done it before my shift, but was running late so I couldn't.

As I was pumping gas, a guy came from between 2 cars in a hotel parking lot next to the gas station. At this time, he was a fair distance away, maybe 65-70 yards. He yelled across the gas station parking lot at me that he needed some money. I told him I didn't have any to give, and he should just be on his way. He continued walking towards me. He got closer and told me again, "Man, I just need some money." I told him, "I already told you, I don't have any, you need to leave." He continued walking towards me and was now somewhere around maybe 30 yards or so away. He raised his arms at me and in his right hand he had a piece of something. I don't know what it was, but it was black, around 2 feet long and looked like something he could use to hit me with. At this point, I was pretty concerned, and saw lots of bad things playing out in my head. I told him, "Stop right there, don't come any closer!" very loudly. He continued walking towards me and told me, "I said give me some money!" At this point, I drew my Glock, pointed it directly at him, and screamed at the top of my lungs, "STOP!!! DON'T COME ANY CLOSER TO ME!!!" I'm not sure quite how close he actually got to me, but I was seriously on edge, and had already made the decision to shoot if he came any closer at all. He turned and ran like crazy. I grabbed my cell phone to call 911, which I should have done a LONG time ago, but didn't think to, and I put my gun away. I had to look all around the pump for the Saf-t-block, but I found it. I also noticed the store clerk outside the front doors of the store. Before I could actually dial my phone two police cars screeched into the parking lot. I held up my hands and before I could say anything, the clerk started screaming, "That guy's got a gun!!! That guy's got a gun!!!"

I kept my hands up and the officer's approached me with hands on their guns, as I would expect. One of them said, "So cowboy, you gotta gun?" I said, "Yes, sir. My name is ---- and I have a CHL, I'm carrying a gun inside my waistband on my right side. My license is in my wallet in my pocket on the right." I didn't move, I just let them approach me. The officer who first called me cowboy was pretty short and asked me why I was carrying a gun and what I was doing out at this time of night. The other officer disarmed me, and took my wallet. He put my gun on the hood of my truck, then handed me my wallet and told me I could get my ID and CHL out for him. He was very friendly, and I explained who I was, why I was out, and what happened. The first officer went to the hotel parking lot and looked around, but never saw any sign of the guy. The second officer was extremely friendly and he took my statement. They also talked to the store clerk who didn't hear all that was said, but told them the same thing I had about the guy approaching me and not leaving. The clerk said he was more afraid that I had a gun than of the guy that approached me!!!

All in all, the whole thing took probably an hour and a half while we were in the parking lot. The second officer talked awhile about the rising crime rate and was very supportive of me carrying and said it prevented me from being robbed at the very least. He told me that things like this now happen all the time there, and they don't always end well. He said they'd file the report, and get back to me, but it's very likely that nothing would ever come of it. He handed me back my gun right before I left, and told me to be careful. As of now, I still haven't even heard from the PD.

Once I got back in my truck, I got shaky all over and even a little nauseated. When it was actually happening, I was ok, but when it was all over, I just kind of crashed. I called my brother, an officer here at the time, and told him all about it. He was supportive and told me I did the right thing. He also said the second officer on scene sounded like he did a really good job, and the first officer, the one who called me cowboy, probably hadn't meant to offend me, but was skeptical about someone other than the police having a gun in that town. We ended up talking most of the way back home because I was still pretty shaken about the whole thing. I think what really got to me was that split second after I drew my gun, I knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that if he came any closer, I would shoot him. I had already mentally prepared to do it. I was actually relieved when he ran. It was so different actually being in the situation than anything I thought I had mentally prepared myself for. I've always told myself that I could pull the trigger if I ever had to. But actually coming that close to making that real life decision weighed pretty heavily on me.

When I finally got to the house, I immediately when in and hugged my wife and kissed her, then went to check on our daughter. I was more thankful for being home that day than I've ever been. Well, that's it. I'm sure it wasn't perfect, and I'm sorry it was long, but there it is. I'm sure I left something out somewhere, so feel free to ask me anything if you want.

[tboesche]

Tactical,

WOW! Glad you didn't have to exert that extra 6 lbs on the trigger. I think you handeled this one very well, repeated warning and the guy still advanced.

[TXGLOCK29]

Tactical,
Thank you for sharing your story with us! It's amazing for me to read what happened to you and to find out that while you were in the heat of the moment you were clear headed, while when it was over you got the shakes. It sounds to me like you handled the situation perfectly, and I would have done the exact same thing if I were in your shoes. I am so happy to hear that you are safe, and that you were able to return home to your family that evening. That, IMHO, is what being a CHL is all about. It's not about being a renegade Rambo, it's about making sure we can be safe in a world that is far from it, because we all deserve to go home and see our families every night. Good for you Tactical!

[Wildscar]

Tactical - Its good to know you handled yourself well. For doing the right thing and sharing with us.

I posted this over in the Motorcycle thread but thought it might be usefull here too. I know this is title is drawing on a bad guy but some times a quick exit is better than going for your sidearm when BG draws on you.

I too got the shakes after the fact. I belive its called an adrenaline crash.

The best thing you can do on a bike when if something happens is to just go. Leave the area as fast as you can. Before I started carrying I was the attempted victim of a bike jacking. This all happened at about 2 in the morning. I ride a sport bike and so did the other rider in the story.

I was escorting another female rider home and while she turn off for her exit I kept going down Preston towards Northwest HWY. When I was stopped at a light I notice the black truck pulled up my right side. I get the uneasy feeling and then a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. That’s when it happened.

I glance over and see the passenger door fly open and over the hood I see a pistol coming over the hood. I only heard half of what he said because I let the clutch out and gave it the gas. I was sure the bike was going to fly out from under me and I would be done for. The front wheel did come off the ground but I was able to put my body weight over the bike and keep it down. Maybe I was hearing things or mistaken in what I heard but I thought I hear about 3 shots. I expected to get hit in the back and then be spattered all over the road. I would have crawled in the gas tank if I could have. I ran the next 3 lights and made a left turn on to North West HWY. I was hoping that at any point there would have been a cop at one of the intersections. Had I been riding like that for fun I’m sure there would have been. I finally pulled over in a well lit connivance store to catch my breath and let the adrenalin run but about the time I came to a stop I remember who I had left just moments before. I torn out for her place to make sure that wasn’t the trucks next stop. I took Northwest to Central up to Royal where she lived. She was just putting the garage door down when I flew into the drive way. I put my bike in there and then used her phone to call in a report. She thought I was crazy and made the whole story up. Then the cops got there and while I was making my report the LEO’s asked if it was a black Toyota truck. When I looked back over at her, he mouth was hanging open. One of those looks of ‘He wasn’t lying’ moments. Apparently I wasn’t the only one that got to meet them. I was just one of the lucky ones that got away. Never heard if they got them or not. I never saw that truck again.

Later that night(morning I should say) after the cops left and I was pulling my bike out of the garage to head home I started to put my helmet on. I got one of those clarity moments of what really happened. There was a scuff on my brand new helmet. One that left by a bullet grazing off it. I rolled the bike back in the garage and decided to stay the night on the couch.

Believe what yall want. If yall don’t believe it so be it. I don’t have a video of it and nothing to back it up with. Best advice I can give it to learn your bike as you would you firearm. Develop that muscle memory that will one day possibly save your life. I know today that if that same encounter happened when I started riding it might not have ended so well.

[Calabash-kid]

"""They also talked to the store clerk who didn't hear all that was said, but told them the same thing I had about the guy approaching me and not leaving. The clerk said he was more afraid that I had a gun than of the guy that approached me!!!"""

It makes me think that the clerk may have been in with the bad guy and was concerned that you were about to put a hole in the middle of his partner's head!

Jerry

[TXGLOCK29]

Wildscar brings up a good point. If I am able to flee the situation without anyone getting hurt that is obviously the right thing to do. In NO WAY am I itching to pull my gun, and like so many intelligent people on this forum have mentioned in the past...Use your gun as a LAST RESORT. I'm glad to hear you got away on your bike, and I'm also glad that bullet hit your helmet and not your head! There are crazies out there, and we have to live with that, but it's nice to hear stories that end with a happy ending!

[Glock 23]

But... would it be considered reasonable to fire if the person continued to advance, had an unknown instrument in his hand, and was using verbal provocation alone?

when its an LEO involved, they always seem to be justified in most scenarios. The factor would be the unknown instrument in his hand.

[Tactical_Texan_CHL]

Russel wrote: But... would it be considered reasonable to fire if the person continued to advance, had an unknown instrument in his hand, and was using verbal provocation alone?

His actions were threatening, but, no, he did not ever say what he would do if I did not give him money. I was fully prepared to pull the trigger, but would I have been justified? I feel like I would have been justified to shoot had he continued advancing.

As I was pumping gas, a guy came from between 2 cars in a hotel parking lot next to the gas station. At this time, he was a fair distance away, maybe 65-70 yards. He yelled across the gas station parking lot at me that he needed some money. I told him I didn't have any to give, and he should just be on his way. (Warning #1) He continued walking towards me. He got closer and told me again, "Man, I just need some money." I told him, "I already told you, I don't have any, you need to leave." (Warning #2) He continued walking towards me and was now somewhere around maybe 30 yards or so away.

At this point, he'd already been warned 2 times, yet continued advancing.

Now, after 2 warnings, he continued advancing, and he raised his hands with something that could have been used as a weapon in his right hand. After a THIRD warning, he told me he needed money again, but this time it was a demand, not a request like previously. And STILL continued advancing on me.

He raised his arms at me and in his right hand he had a piece of something. I don't know what it was, but it was black, around 2 feet long and looked like something he could use to hit me with. At this point, I was pretty concerned, and saw lots of bad things playing out in my head. I told him, "Stop right there, don't come any closer!" (Warning #3) very loudly. He continued walking towards me and told me, "I said give me some money!"

This was the point where I drew on him, and even gave him a fourth warning, which thankfully, he took.

At this point, I drew my Glock, pointed it directly at him, and screamed at the top of my lungs, "STOP!!! DON'T COME ANY CLOSER TO ME!!!" (Warning #4)

He'd ignored multiple warnings to leave me alone. He'd also made a threatening gesture with his hands and was holding something that was, in my opinion, intended to be used as a weapon. There was little question in my mind anyway about what his intentions were. Luckily, the situation stopped there, he ran and I didn't have to find out. My brother, and several other LEO's agree, including the one who took my statement and wrote the report. Several LEO's have actually told me, "He's lucky, I would have shot him."

So IMHO, I was justified in what I did, and also would have been justified if I'd shot the guy, because the only way I'd have shot him was if he'd STILL continued to advance.

Was I legally justified in what I did? I think yes, otherwise, I'd have gone to jail that night, or soon after the report was filed and then charges would have been pressed against me.

Would I have been legally justified if the situation HAD gotten worse, and he HAD continued to advance on me, and I HAD shot him? Yes, I think so. But, I'm not a lawyer, and I just don't know for sure. I'm open to opinions, suggestions, and the friendly critique. And, Russel, sometimes the Devil's Advocate is an important role, it makes us think.

[seamusTX]

I think you did the right thing.

Robbery is theft by force or threat of force. It is not necessary that the robber display a weapon or say specifically what he will do if you don't give him money. His demeanor can constitute a threat of force. People have been convicted of robbery in such situations.

The use of force or deadly force is justified to prevent robbery.

Producing a weapon does not constitute the use of deadly force, according to the law.The legislature intended to permit exactly the kind of move that you made.

Also, as the friendly officer pointed out, police have shot people in such circumstances and been found to be justified.

On the other hand, this is the kind of situation that Harold Fish was in, and he was convicted of murder. If public sentiment is against you and the DA lacks a spine, the defender could be in trouble.

- Jim

[frankie_the_yankee]

Next, I would like to play devil's advocate here and see what other people think,

Would you shoot somebody who is advancing, you aren't sure if they have a weapon, and has not yet used force against you?

I would almost always make some kind of effort to retreat, Castle Doctrine or not. But as I have mentioned, I have some medical issues that greatly limit my ability to retreat very fast or very far. So if the BG presses forward, I will soon find myself facing a serious threat to life and limb.

Someone in better health than I would have more options.

But... would it be considered reasonable to fire if the person continued to advance, had an unknown instrument in his hand, and was using verbal provocation alone?

It's hard to say, because every scenario can have subtle differences that can, in the end, make all the difference. So all I can say is the somewhat lame and uninformative observation that I would try to act as a reasonable person, and protect myself as best as I could, while using as little force as necessary.

[Kythas]

When I was in college in Louisiana, I was driving on a road in the country late one night. My parents lived in the country and I had been at their house and was driving back to town. I was on a two lane road that was fairly curvy and had few straightaways to pass anyone.

I got behind a pickup truck that was doing about 30 mph in a 55 mph zone. As the road would twist and turn, I wasn't able to pass him. However, whenever any straight section of road came up and I tried to pass, he'd speed up to prevent me from passing until either the road started to turn again or another car was coming the other way, at which time I'd slow down and get back behind the truck, when he'd then slow down back to about 30 mph.

After about 15 minutes of this, he finally started slowing down even more but would, again, prevent me from passing. On one passing attempt he sped up and ran me off the road, pulling his truck in front of my car after I was stopped.

Three men in their early 20s then got out of the truck and started advancing toward me, not saying a word. I carried a Taurus 9mm in my car (which was legal in LA at the time). I pulled my 9mm out, drew on the men, and told them "I think you want to get back in your truck and leave". Luckily they saw the wisdom of my words, put up their hands, got back in their truck, and left.

I had just gotten home from Iraq (Gulf War, this would have been in '91) a couple of months earlier, so had no question that I would have fired if I'd been forced to do so. I had to sit there for about 10 minutes after they left to let the adrenaline crash pass.