open carry

[chewy555]

I have not said anything up to this point about open carry. I am not sure if I would open carry if it was legal, but I would like the option to. I can see both sides to it.
But I agree with Mr. Rothstein, that we need to work on the laws for conceled carry for now. And then later work on open carry.

[45 4 life]

I have been a little slow at work, so I have been doing some research at http://www.opencarry.org. Here are some of the things I have found.

1. In "Gold States" (there are 10) where no permits is required to open carry it is an immense hassle to do so. Everthing you read that some believe may happen will happen. The sheeple call 911, LEO's will stop and question you, and buisnesses will post.

2. In the green states (there are 13) where permits are required to carry OC or CC (in most of these you have choice) The same listed hassle's apply when individuals or groups OC. States in this category include New Jersey and Rhode Island. The forums make it sound near impossible to get permits there.

3. The next group are states where state law says OC is legal, but cities can overide the state. (preemption) Included in this group is Colorado and Kansas. OCer's in these states have the same issues as the first two with the added flavor of staying up to date with city laws. Do not OC in Denver. Permits are required for CC but not for OC in most of these.

4. The red group which Texas falls into of course is no OC. Surprising that only 6 states are in this group.

5. The last group is for California and Illinois. I don't need to fill you in here do I.

One thing that really stood out is that in most of the OC states there seems to be a struggle keeping new more restrictive laws from passing. Major cities are trying to over rule state laws in many large populated areas. Different from here in Texas where most of the attempts for change would give those of us with CHL's more freedom.

Several business including some reports from wally worlds around the country take no issue to CC, but will ask you to leave or cover when you are OC. Adds some argument to a post by Charles. The sheeple have very sensitive eyes and prefer to stay in the dark.

I would just reccomend to those of you that are still trying to decide to be for or against OC to visit open carry for a little reading.

Do not expect that a change in the law in Texas will make all the issues disappear.

By the way Alaska seems to be the best bet for those who want to OC on a daily bases.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Nice summary of the reality of OC in the various states where it enjoys differing "technical" degrees of legality.

I'm surprised that there has been so little reaction to my proposal to allow for OC in TX on private property with the owner/occupant's consent. This modest advancement should be relatively non-controversial, and in line with TX's traditionally strong private property laws. And mostly, it would just serve to clarify the law for situations that come up every day.

For example, My wife and I were houseguests attending a small gathering at a friend's house last year. The subject of CHL's came up and my wife mentioned that I had one. My wife's friend asked me if I had a gun with me all evening and of course I said "Yes." She was quite surprised and asked me where it was and could she see it. So I raised my untucked shirt and showed her where my IWB holster was positioned (around 3 o'clock). At her request, I drew the small revolver (SP101), cleared it and handed it to her so she could get a feel of what it would be like if she elected to get a CHL of her own.

Technically, I think I may have violated the "willful failure to conceal" statute, though maybe not as I was acting in my capacity of an NRA Certified Instructor and providing basic safety instruction to this person in addition to advice on concealed carry. But IANAL, and for all I know I could have been in violation.

I must admit that I wasn't really concerned about it because other guests present were police officers who never batted an eyelash at any of this. FWIW, I had previously donated my services to teach the NRA Basic Pistol Course to the PD's associated Explorer Troop, so I was well known to the officers present.

At any rate, my non-controversial proposal would fully legalize situations like this while getting the camel's nose into the tent for further gains down the road. I think that the TSRA should consider bringing it up next session.

[Tactical_Texan_CHL]

Which law states that you can't openly carry a firearm on someone's property with their permission. I've done it a million times before and never knew that it was not legal. Granted, ignorance is no defense, so I'd like to read it and know from now on.

I looked through the PC 46.02 and I think I found it, but it's off the DPS site, and it won't let me copy and paste just the part I want from the PDF file. Under unlawful carying weapons it says an offense is commited if

*snip* a person... commits offense... carries on or about his or her person... (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or...*snip*

If you're carrying openly on a friends land, how do you prove the owner allows the "premises to be under your control" if they're not there? If they are there, can they simply tell the officer that they allow you to have control of the premises also? I've openly carried a million times while we were riding 4 wheelers on his land, and never realized this was not legal. I guess the chances of a deputy or officer being out there are slim to none, but it would still be nice to be able to do it legally.

[boomerang]

Which law states that you can't openly carry a firearm on someone's property with their permission. I've done it a million times before and never knew that it was not legal. Granted, ignorance is no defense, so I'd like to read it and know from now on.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... m#46.02.00

My brother also regular carry's openly there, but with out his badge displayed. He carried it in his pocket, but not on his belt next to the firearm. Does that even make a difference?

What kind of badge? If it's a CHL badge it makes no difference. If he's a LEO he can carry openly or concealed.

[Tactical_Texan_CHL]

Sorry, boomerang. I looked a little closer and found it in the CHL Laws and Selected Statutes. I must have been editing as you were replying. He's an LEO.

[flintknapper]

deleted

[45 4 life]

Well flintknapper when I first saw your recommendation about carry on private property I to thought it was legal to do so now. Just goes to show you this forum will keep you on your toes! I have certainly been guilty of this myself. My only saving grace is that we do have a firing range set up and we are normally shooting.

But yes, I agree that items such as this and university carry should be more important to us at this time. Along with a stronger education regarding the use of 30.06. I do not beleive that all of the establishments that currently post are really aware of what they are posting or who they are basically locking their doors to.

When I sent my email to AMC, rather than point out the facts of the background check and qualifiing steps. I asked if there was some incident that prompted the use of a 30.06 sign. That question must have really stumped them, I did not even get the canned response that everyone received.

[KD5NRH]

If you're carrying openly on a friends land, how do you prove the owner allows the "premises to be under your control" if they're not there? If they are there, can they simply tell the officer that they allow you to have control of the premises also?

More importantly, upon whom is the burden of proof that the premises are not under your control?

For example, my wife and I own 10 acres at the corner of my mom's property, with no fence between the properties. (just the survey markers, since I'm in line to inherit the land and we don't have any cattle to separate from her small herd, so building a fence would just be an extra expense) Since it is the least accessible corner from her house, we keep an eye on the rest of the land around it, and occasionally deal with coyotes on either side of the line. Technically one could argue that either; predator hunting is an activity in which the handgun is normally used, (a bit of a stretch for most of my handguns) that the property is, to some extent, under our control. (we all try to communicate if any third party is given permission to be on any of the land unattended, with the expectation any of us will shoo off or call the sheriff on any unrecognised person out there) Either of those would be hard to prove if the owner of the property in question is not available, though, and I'd hate to have to spend mom's vacation in jail waiting for her to come back and settle it.

[longtooth]

In Texas your sircumstance would be easy enough to say you were in charge I think. The coyote or other varmit statement should cover you. My opinion.
Remember IANAL. Little different at my Moms house in a retirement community. I am covered all the time in her yard. Inside her moble home is a little different.

[boomerang]

More importantly, upon whom is the burden of proof that the premises are not under your control?

The burden of proof is on the government in a court of law.

Outside the court, the government can presume you're guilty and arrest you if you can't show you're innocent.

[flintknapper]

Well flintknapper when I first saw your recommendation about carry on private property I to thought it was legal to do so now. Just goes to show you this forum will keep you on your toes!

Pretty sure I didn't make a post like that, but you've got me looking now.

[45 4 life]

Oops my mistake Frankie the Yankee not you flintknapper.

[flintknapper]

Oops my mistake Frankie the Yankee not you flintknapper.

It's O.K., Frankie and I are often mistaken for one another (aren't we Frankie).

[frankie_the_yankee]

Well flintknapper when I first saw your recommendation about carry on private property I to thought it was legal to do so now. Just goes to show you this forum will keep you on your toes! I have certainly been guilty of this myself. My only saving grace is that we do have a firing range set up and we are normally shooting.

Yes, it was me and not flint that proposed this.

And I realize that in practical terms it is not a big issue where people are getting hassled at the present time.

At my place, I too have a firing range, and it is perfectly legal for me to have guests come over and engage in target practice. It falls under the "sporting activity" exemption.

But I made the proposal as a non-controversial way of "clarifying" the legality of a very common activity while simultaneously getting OC on the table during the next legislative session.

University carry by CHLs is much more important and significant. But as a consequence it will be a much bigger battle to fight. (Also, one well worth fighting.)