Louis Farrakhan writes about Joe Horn

[KD5NRH]

Hmmmm, man with tire iron and a bag of stuff coming out of my nieghbors window to their house, heading straight for me...

It all depends on whether his attorney pushes self-defense or protection of a third person's property. Unless there's other evidence of self-defense we don't know about, it wouldn't be my preference. See my previous post in this thread; I think he's got a much better case with 9.43, but then, IANAL.

[seeker_two]

Another concept that I haven't seen mentioned is disparity of force...

Two young, prison-fed criminally-minded men advancing on a 60yo physically impared gentleman constitutes a genuine threat to the gentleman's safety that he cannot physically defend himself unless he has a weapon.

When photos and medical records are presented to the jury, I bet this becomes a big part of Horn's defense....

[Lucky45]

Hmmmm, man with tire iron and a bag of stuff coming out of my nieghbors window to their house, heading straight for me...

I don't have a flat tire...

I think we can correct this info with statements from the police report.

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
Dec. 8, 2007, 10:05AM
By CINDY HORSWELL and ROBERT STANTON

Neither suspect was armed, but one had a "center punch," a 6-inch pointed metal tool, in his pocket that might be used as a weapon, authorities said.

So obviously, a search of the crime scene and suspects did not produce a crowbar or a tire iron. These items were in the shooter's head.

Also another piece of info.

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
Dec. 8, 2007, 10:05AM
By CINDY HORSWELL and ROBERT STANTON

In another twist, investigators revealed that a plainclothes Pasadena detective witnessed the Nov. 14 shootings after he pulled up in an unmarked car seconds before Horn fired three shots from his 12-gauge shotgun......................."We now have a summary documenting what we think happened," said Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "We will turn it over to the district attorney in a couple of weeks after we do an extensive review for quality control."..........................Corbett said the plainclothes detective, whose name has not been released, had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.
Corbett believes neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present. "It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point." When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze. Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb. "The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."

So now I have my question answered about where exactly were the police.

[Photoman]

"We will turn it over to the district attorney in a couple of weeks after we do an extensive review for quality control."

Doesn't that just give you the heebie-jeebies?!

[srothstein]

So now I have my question answered about where exactly were the police.

It actually raised more questions to me. Why is it taking this long for them to decide a police officer was at the scene. If he was, did he write the report that day? Why did he not try to stop them before Horn came out (I understand the hiding while Horn was there with a shotgun, though I disagree)? If he pulled up while Horn was out, then how could he have seen everything and why did Horn not see him? There is no way Horn could have thought he was the wheelman if he pulls up as Horn is confronting them and shouts "Police" with his pistol pointing at the bad guys.

When I read the article mentioning the officer at the scene, I just seemed to hear a train whistle in the background with it. Of course, it could be just me.

[Lucky45]

Why did he not try to stop them before Horn came out (I understand the hiding while Horn was there with a shotgun, though I disagree)?

I would guess that if I was in plainclothes and heard the radio traffic on my way to the call, then I wouldn't have gotten out unless it was just me confronting them or there were other uniformed patrol there that knows me. Reason being, because Horn already expressed his intentions many times to the operator, and these intentions were relayed on APB by another operator in the control room. You can hear it in the 911 call. Then when you know the mentally of some people who boldly insert themselves into your line of work, I wouldn't have gotten out either. Few years back a off-duty Harris County sheriff deputy was shot in his apartment complex when he came out to help and was "mistaken" since he was "a man" who "fit the description" and had a gun of course.

If he pulled up while Horn was out, then how could he have seen everything and why did Horn not see him?

He was looking between the 2 houses and would be able to see it. Also, Horn was obviously looking for a marked police vehicle that is why he did not notice the unmarked car. He said there wasn't any police present in the 911 call

There is no way Horn could have thought he was the wheelman if he pulls up as Horn is confronting them and shouts "Police" with his pistol pointing at the bad guys.

When I find out the race of the plainclothes LEO then I will answer this question.

[stevie_d_64]

Hmmmm, man with tire iron and a bag of stuff coming out of my nieghbors window to their house, heading straight for me...

I don't have a flat tire...

I think we can correct this info with statements from the police report.

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
Dec. 8, 2007, 10:05AM
By CINDY HORSWELL and ROBERT STANTON

Neither suspect was armed, but one had a "center punch," a 6-inch pointed metal tool, in his pocket that might be used as a weapon, authorities said.

So obviously, a search of the crime scene and suspects did not produce a crowbar or a tire iron. These items were in the shooter's head.

Also another piece of info.

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
Dec. 8, 2007, 10:05AM
By CINDY HORSWELL and ROBERT STANTON

In another twist, investigators revealed that a plainclothes Pasadena detective witnessed the Nov. 14 shootings after he pulled up in an unmarked car seconds before Horn fired three shots from his 12-gauge shotgun......................."We now have a summary documenting what we think happened," said Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "We will turn it over to the district attorney in a couple of weeks after we do an extensive review for quality control."..........................Corbett said the plainclothes detective, whose name has not been released, had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.
Corbett believes neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present. "It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point." When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze. Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb. "The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."

So now I have my question answered about where exactly were the police.

The beauty of the media and press again proves that news is not evidence...

[stevie_d_64]

"We will turn it over to the district attorney in a couple of weeks after we do an extensive review for quality control."

Doesn't that just give you the heebie-jeebies?!

Somebody is really going to have to explain the concept of how "quality control" is a time consuming part of preparing the case going to the GJ???

I mean I know they want to get all if not as much of the investigation and review completed before it is presented...But shouldn't QC kinda go along with all of that anyway???

To make a public statement mentioning that, gives me the heebie-jeebies all by itself...

[G-Ma]

I always thought that the whole point of writing down the incident as soon after it happened was to prevent "Quality Control" or any other kind of control and to make as accurate a statement of the facts as possible, without the changes and mistakes that time makes in one's memory. Am I mistaken or doesn't the officer's report, in its original form, become a legal document and part of the case ... as it was originally written. I wonder what the officer(s) wrote that the AG doesn't like seeing? Hmm.....

Too bad that this had to happen in Harris Co.

[FIFTY]

It all depends on whether his attorney pushes self-defense or protection of a third person's property. Unless there's other evidence of self-defense we don't know about, it wouldn't be my preference. See my previous post in this thread; I think he's got a much better case with 9.43, but then, IANAL.

Although an attorney might run the risk of appearing unsure of his defense, I was under the impression that an attorney could argue multiple arguments in defense of his client. Am I wrong? For example:

A-Client is not guilty of murder, because he shot in defense of his own life
B-Even if those facts are disputed, he also meets the criteria for using deadly force in defense of a third persons property

From the little bit I have read it looks as though Horn's attorney is mostly pushing self-defense.

However, is an attorney in this sort of case required to only argue a single defense, or can he present multiple?

[Stupid]

Money sent.

[FightinAggieCHL]

What he may try doing is using one single defense, and then if it is apparent that he is not winning the jury, he may try to incorporate the other one.

Or he might just be using the self-defense one for interviews, because he thinks it's the weakest. He probably wants to save his best hand to catch the prosecution off-guard if the case goes to trial.

[lawrnk]

"We will turn it over to the district attorney in a couple of weeks after we do an extensive review for quality control."

Doesn't that just give you the heebie-jeebies?!

Maybe they fear a GJ will be too occupied with Christmas and let him walk? Who knows...

[lawrnk]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5374078.html

Falkenberg: Property outweighing people in Horn case


By LISA FALKENBERG
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

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In Joe Horn's now-infamous 911 call reporting the burglary of his neighbor's home last month, there's a particularly disturbing refrain that made many of us cringe.

"I'm not going to let them get away with this," the Pasadena homeowner tells the dispatcher several times in various ways in the moments before he shot to death the two burglars, Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 28, and Diego Ortiz, 30.

To many of us, Horn's preoccupation with stopping the crime and recovering the stolen property — "a bag of loot," as Horn described it — seemed irrational and vengeful rather than heroic.

We agreed with the dispatcher, who repeatedly pleaded with the 61-year-old computer consultant to keep himself and his shotgun safe inside his own house while police headed to the scene.

"Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over," the dispatcher told Horn.


Property vs. human life
Human life is worth more than property. It seems like a universal truth. But apparently not in Texas, or other states with similar laws.


Over the past week, I've researched the Texas Penal Code and discovered some provisions that were surprising even to this fifth-generation Texan.

The law of our land seems to place more value on the property being stolen — even if it belongs to a neighbor — than on the life of the burglar stealing it.

A review of our state's protection-of-property statutes suggests that Horn's repeated declarations about not letting the burglars "get away with it" may be the words that ultimately set him free.

If Horn doesn't get indicted, don't blame the grand jury. And don't blame Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal. Blame the section of Chapter 9 of the Penal Code that deals with protection of property.


Justifiable homicide
Under the section, which has been in place at least since 1973, a person is justified in using deadly force to protect a neighbor's property from burglary if the person "reasonably believes" deadly force is immediately necessary to stop the burglars from escaping with the stolen property. It's also justified if the shooter "reasonably believes" that "the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means."


Now, one might argue that, since the dispatcher told Horn that police were on their way, Horn should have reasonably believed authorities would nab the bad guys.

But the escalating anxiety in Horn's voice as he sees the burglars emerge from his neighbor's window with the goods, and his reiteration that "they're getting away" moments before he fires his 12-gauge may indicate to a grand jury that Horn didn't believe police would arrive in time.

Rosenthal wouldn't discuss the particulars of the Horn case, which he is still waiting to receive from Pasadena police. And police haven't revealed all the facts. A police spokesman disclosed last week that, according to a plainclothes detective who witnessed the Nov. 14 shootings, Horn shot the two men in the back after they'd ventured into his front yard.

The fact that they were on his yard may provide Horn with even more protection.

Rosenthal said he won't let the controversy surrounding the case influence his office's handling of it.

And the prosecutor won't make a recommendation to the grand jury, which Rosenthal said is standard for such cases.

"We'll take it to a grand jury; we'll present it straight up, and whatever the grand jury does, we'll follow it. And if they decide they want to indict the guy, we'll handle it and we'll suffer the slings and arrows, but that's part of the territory," Rosenthal said.

Even if they don't indict him, it doesn't mean Horn's actions were morally right. He chose to kill; he didn't have to. His own life and property were not in danger until he confronted the burglars.

There's a difference between what we can do and what we should do. Without careful judgment and discretion, the law can be a dangerous thing.

The same law that may protect Horn from indictment could also protect someone who, in the dark of night, discovers a group of teenage girls wrapping his front yard trees with toilet paper.

To a rational person, this is a harmless prank. Under Texas law, in a world without discretion, the girls are engaging in criminal mischief and the homeowner would be justified in mowing them down with a shotgun.

[anygunanywhere]

From the Chronicle:

To a rational person, this is a harmless prank. Under Texas law, in a world without discretion, the girls are engaging in criminal mischief and the homeowner would be justified in mowing them down with a shotgun.

When my boys were young, they warned their friends to stay out of our yard at night after the lights went out.

"Ya'll don't want to find out what my Daddy will do if he catches you in the yard."

I was thinking more along the line of a switch, but whatever they thought, they stayed out of our yard.

Wrapping houses is vandalism. Not a shooting offense, but vandalism. The Chronicle reall picked a poor example to justify their stance. It sure is nice to read the press taking up for the criminals.

Anygun