Stupid question: Justification against unarmed

[Lykoi]

You would never hear x is an integer if a reasonable person believes it to be an integer :)

LOL!!!!

I'm starting my master this fall, finishing degree #2 this spring... and there's no application of philosophy or English to the "law"...

First we must decide what constitutes the ability to reason?
I think therefore I am... but if i am thinking, might it all be a mere illusion...
blah blah blah!!! Then we could get into a debate on what exactly the author MEANT without saying it..

[Dragonfighter]

I have had a few hand-to-hand situations wherein OC was utilized. I have to date prevailed, but...

I have seen it used where the BG was drugged (PCP) and it had little effect. It was used by a small female LEO and it was my partner and myself that actually ended up in the fight. The OC did not slow the guy down and the fight was a hard one. We burned all night long after that one.

One instance was an MHMR person where both of us were hit. I trained extensively with CS several (>25) years ago so I was able to function which was good. It was in a small house and the LEO effectively took himself out of the fight and managed to agitate the BG. I was riding with a different partner who vacated when he saw the OC come out. I managed to pretzle the yo-yo and coax my partner back in with some tape. I was out of service for about three hours after that one.

There are a few more examples but in my experience OC is ineffective with someone who is chemically or emotionally altered. Depending on the environment the potential to disable yourself as well as the BG is very real.

I am fairly diplomatic. I will (and have) chose diplomacy anytime that the situation's urgency level allows. I have talked myself out of more trouble than I care to admit. If I can not de-escalate the situation, I would have to consider the possibility that OC would not serve either.

[Elotemuygrande]

I have had a few hand-to-hand situations wherein OC was utilized. I have to date prevailed, but...

I have seen it used where the BG was drugged (PCP) and it had little effect. It was used by a small female LEO and it was my partner and myself that actually ended up in the fight. The OC did not slow the guy down and the fight was a hard one. We burned all night long after that one.

One instance was an MHMR person where both of us were hit. I trained extensively with CS several (>25) years ago so I was able to function which was good. It was in a small house and the LEO effectively took himself out of the fight and managed to agitate the BG. I was riding with a different partner who vacated when he saw the OC come out. I managed to pretzle the yo-yo and coax my partner back in with some tape. I was out of service for about three hours after that one.

There are a few more examples but in my experience OC is ineffective with someone who is chemically or emotionally altered. Depending on the environment the potential to disable yourself as well as the BG is very real.

I am fairly diplomatic. I will (and have) chose diplomacy anytime that the situation's urgency level allows. I have talked myself out of more trouble than I care to admit. If I can not de-escalate the situation, I would have to consider the possibility that OC would not serve either.

I have smeared the stuff all over my face to test the effects, and while it's miserable I could probably come at you just fine after being sprayed. However, when the slightest bit gets in the eyes they become inflamed and your eyelids shut involuntarily. I was totally blind for 5-10 minutes from one little drop of the stuff that I tested. I suspect, although I'm not sure, that even someone who was drugged up or had a high pain tolerance would have to close their eyes if you were able to hit them there. That is a really good concern though, that it might blow back on you and you would disable yourself.

[Dragonfighter]

I have smeared the stuff all over my face to test the effects, and while it's miserable I could probably come at you just fine after being sprayed. However, when the slightest bit gets in the eyes they become inflamed and your eyelids shut involuntarily. I was totally blind for 5-10 minutes from one little drop of the stuff that I tested. I suspect, although I'm not sure, that even someone who was drugged up or had a high pain tolerance would have to close their eyes if you were able to hit them there. That is a really good concern though, that it might blow back on you and you would disable yourself.

Use in a car or other confined space is ill advised in my opinion.

I have taken a hit square in the face and eyes. I did in the second incident I related. Rapid blinking and a little snot slinging later, I was able to see enough to wrap this guy up. I was for all practical purposes, out of commission for quite a while after the incident. You might consider it an emergency override.

If I could force my way through without being desensitized chemically or deranged, then I suspect one who was could also. And the fellow that we fought in the first incident was hit full force more than once.

I will grant this, if a choice between CS and OC is what I have against a nut bar, I'll take the OC everytime.

[Odin]

When I'm walking around in my everyday street clothes I'm already carrying on my belt or in my pockets my car keys (required), a folding knife (used almost daily), sometimes a cell phone (used daily, carried sometimes), a holstered firearm and sometimes a spare magazine in a belt pouch.

the fact that you will ALWAYS carry a hangun and not always have your cell phone means you aren't carrying proper tools all the time.

I agree that a cell phone is a good thing to have on you in an emergency, but often I don't want to bother with carrying it, as it's just one more thing to tote around. I'm not one of those people who uses the cell phone much, so I don't miss it. I managed to live many decades without a cell phone so I don't feel lost without one. It's always in the truck if it's not on me.

The only item there that won't be used daily is the handgun, and the handgun is the only item I know of that in a worst case scenario if the a problem arises can be used to stop an immediate threat on and save my life or the life of a person with me.

If all you have is a hammer, then EVERY problem begins to look like a nail

You're right, but where does it end? What about all the other tools that one could theoretically carry just in case of emergency? In my opinion OC can escalate a situation that may have otherwise been avoided just as easily as it can solve a problem, and I'm not overly confident in its ability to stop a fight. I've seen too much evidence of that.

I'm not saying that OC isn't a useful item, but how much stuff should I be reasonably expected to carry around on my person on a daily basis? I'm not discounting OC or other items as useful, but compromises must be made in the name of practicality (otherwise we'd all be carrying shotguns).

you not expected to carry ANYTHING... you choose to carry what you want... you don't seem to mind having a handgun, but no way to call for LE if the situation demands it... OC is simply ANOTHER tool... it's a way to deal with some situations where you can't legally justify shooting someone... I once had a drunk person use my front tire as a toilet.. he refused to move despite my being in the vehicle, and he began yelling profanity at me through the headlights... i'm not about to shoot some moron for urinating on my truck, but i'm not going to let him block my exit, abuse my property and yell threats (however idle) at me while i'm trying to leave... he got the spray, and he deserved it...

In that case I would have simply locked my doors and called 911 if the drunk wouldn't move and there was no other possible way to drive away. I'm not going to fight a guy because he peed on my tire. I'd be fighting neighborhood dogs all the time of that were the case.

OC is notoriously poor at controlling drunks and people who are on drugs. That might have escalated a non-physical situation into something worse. Also, if you spray the guy and drive away do you call him an ambulance. Some people have had adverse medical reactions to OC spray, especially when they are under the influence of something.

OC is a two edged sword, no you don't "need" it... but it can be useful when you feel the situation does not call for you to shoot the person. It's also dangerous as if used ineffectively it can incapacitate you and leave you open to an escalated attack in which you now have less ability to control your firearm or see your target.. it's not for everyone, but it's simply another tool...

OC is very unpredictable in its ability to incapacitate someone. I do know that just about anyone is capable of ignoring the OC and fighting through it effectively if they are determined to do so. In my opinion a person who is determined to do me physical harm should be able to fight through the OC to carry out that threat. OC can be useful (or useless) in distracting someone long enough to get the cuffs on them, but in a case like you described above I wouldn't use it. It worked for you so that's what matters.

however your cell phone should be on you at all times when you think carrying is necessary. It's the only method you might have to prevent greater injury to others etc...

I agree that it's a good idea, although I sometimes compromise and don't carry it.

[Keith B]

........ and a little snot slinging later,.......

The only time I ever threatened to shoot an unarmed and handcuffed prisoner was when one did that in the back seat of my patrol car after I had CS'ed him. He must have had sinus cavities the size of the grand canyon! This was pre-plexi shields over the cage. Needless to say, I was not a happy camper and hit the shower at the station as soon as I arrived.

The car maintenance superviosr and I were able to convence the Chief we needed to get some shields made up after that incident.

[ctxpta]

You can draw a weapon as a use of force and not be an actual use of deadly force. If the situation called for the threat of or the actual use of force then you would be justified in drawing the weapon as a threat that you will use deadly force.

You must be able to articulate the need for force. If the person coming at you is significantly larger then you will/should be able to articulate a fear for serious bodily injury and or possible death.

[WildBill]

The CHL class that I took was VERY weak on legal issues(IMHO) and the actual laws are a bit unclear to me.

This definitely does not fall under the "Stupid Question" category. Maybe you can contact another CHL instructor and explain your situation and they would let you audit their class at no charge.

[CHL/LEO]

I believe the first CHL shooting in Texas was the one that occurred on the Mockingbird bridge in Dallas.

You are correct. He was arrested and released on bond. His case was referred to the Grand Jury by the DA who thought that since the guy was only beating him with his fists then perhaps he shouldn't have shot him.

The CHL holder testified that he was afraid the guy was going to beat him to death due to how big he was and the fit of rage he was under. His attorney was sharp enough to have the Medical Examiner testify as to the fact that they had performed numerous autopsies on individuals that had been beaten to death by other people who were only using their fists.

The Grand Jury didn't take too long to "no bill" him.

[mr surveyor]

the argument of "always" having you cell phone on your person is an urban issue. We don't all live in the wonderful world of perfect cell service coverage. At least half of the area in which I work in the NE Tx area is a "no talkie" zone where cell coverage is almost non existent. There just isn't a one size fits all for everyone, everywhere. I carry my cell phone, as well as a whole lot of "other" things on a daily basis, but the cell phone is the very least dependable of my tools.

[tomc]

This definitely does not fall under the "Stupid Question" category. Maybe you can contact another CHL instructor and explain your situation and they would let you audit their class at no charge.

There is too much information given in too short a time for anyone to come out of the CHL class as an expert. When I took my first class, I got permission from the instructor to set in on other classes to better understand the information. Talk to your instructor and see if he will let you audit his or another instructor's course again.

I also read and re-read the material many times. The legaleze is fairly strait forward, but each situation presents a different facet on the understanding of the laws. Keep your questions in mind and play out different situations to help you with your mindset. Staying active on this forum will also help.

[kw5kw]

I am average Joe Citizen who does not walk around with a Sam Browne and all it's attachments. Therefore I carry my single weapon of choice that day: My .380, my 9mm or my .45 either pocket carry or IWB or OWB. Simply don't have room for anything else in my daily wear.

[Odin]

the argument of "always" having you cell phone on your person is an urban issue. We don't all live in the wonderful world of perfect cell service coverage. At least half of the area in which I work in the NE Tx area is a "no talkie" zone where cell coverage is almost non existent. There just isn't a one size fits all for everyone, everywhere. I carry my cell phone, as well as a whole lot of "other" things on a daily basis, but the cell phone is the very least dependable of my tools.

Not to mention we managed to survive the last 6000 years without the things, I don't go into a panic when there's not a cell phone around.

[Elotemuygrande]

Not to mention we managed to survive the last 6000 years without the things

I spy a Creationist. But a Creationist named Odin?

[Lykoi]

Not to mention we managed to survive the last 6000 years without the things, I don't go into a panic when there's not a cell phone around.

I find my cell phone is more valuable a tool 99% of the time than the firearm i'm carrying...

I've taken photos of bg's and even a license plate that helped Arlington PD find a guy who tried to shoot someone.

I've called in domestic disturbances on my old neighbors when he decided to show her he was a "man"...

I've called in multiple car wrecks, a heart attack, several "drunk drivers" while i was a bouncer, a guy who drunk when he left a gas station i walked into, and even when i "happened" upon the guy who was riding my stolen motorcycle... in all these cases my phone was used to prevent someone from losing their life, taking another's life, causing injury to another, or to report a crime.

I've drawn my CCW once... i wouldn't be without it b/c that 1% is all it takes to make the other 99% unimportant...

you should always have the phone for multiple reasons...

you can call for help... if you're outnumbered, cornered, anything you might NEED help, the ability to get it is paramount to your "having one more thing on the belt"

You might witness a crime and be able to follow/identify the suspect... waiting for the police might allow a worse crime to be committed.

There a method to track your phone's location if you are in trouble... I've accidentally dialed 911 on one occasion (don't ask how) and before i knew i'd done it, there were to local LEO's at my door knocking.

If you do use your CCW in defense of yourself, who's to say the BG won't survive and need an ambulance... who's to say you won't be the one injured and need that ambulance? When you're bleeding out and the BG who shot you runs off, are you going to think "man i'm glad i wasn't inconvenienced by falling on one of those "damn cell phones".

In the end it's another tool.. one you should carry every time you walk outside... If you don't "like them" get "good reception" then your choice is what effects your life... but not carrying a cell phone makes less sense that not carrying a firearm.. as it doesn't matter if your finger is on the "trigger" or where you point it... no training is really needed, and not many safety issues or classes to take to learn to use it to prevent/stop a crime.

If you care enough to be armed, be armed for the majority of situations and not the minority.