Post Office Law Suit to Repeal Carry Rule

[WildRose]

I know this is a subject that isn't likely to reach a resolution sooner rather than later but the issue should be cut and dried.

Does a citizen have to surrender their rights protected by the BOR or any other federal civil rights laws in order to enter a post office?

IF all are not forfeit in doing so how can we justify the denial of any of them under the same circumstances?

All of the statistics kept show that licensed carriers are the single least likely segment of the population to commit any crime, much less a violent crime so the "public safety interest" exception holds no water at all.

[Ruark]

So what's the current status on this issue? Used to be you couldn't even carry in your car in a Post Office parking lot. Is that still the case? Has anything changed?

[AF-Odin]

It is still Federal Property so Federal rules apply.

[ScottDLS]

It is still Federal Property so Federal rules apply.

Good, so like all other federal buildings 18 USC 930 only prohibits firearms in the buildings but not in the parking lots or other property.

[K.Mooneyham]

So, I have a question, since this thread was "brought back to life". Does anyone know of any case law where a person's vehicle was searched without other provocation (an altercation, other crime committed, etc.) while parked in the open-to-the-public parking lot of a Post Office, a firearm was discovered, and the person was prosecuted and convicted of a violation of Federal law, resulting in fine or imprisonment? Additionally, if that case law can be pointed out, does anyone know exactly which portion of Federal code was used in said prosecution? Inquiring minds want to know...

[chasfm11]

So, I have a question, since this thread was "brought back to life". Does anyone know of any case law where a person's vehicle was searched without other provocation (an altercation, other crime committed, etc.) while parked in the open-to-the-public parking lot of a Post Office, a firearm was discovered, and the person was prosecuted and convicted of a violation of Federal law, resulting in fine or imprisonment? Additionally, if that case law can be pointed out, does anyone know exactly which portion of Federal code was used in said prosecution? Inquiring minds want to know...

I had the same question. I searched and searched. I could never find a case where Federal charges on firearms were made without some other condition - drug sales, etc. involved. The feedback from Corps employees on firearm carry on USACE property is the same - nothing is going to happen unless there is some other condition. There are some cases where someone used a firearm in self-defense and was acquitted of murder charges only to have Federal charges filed afterward, based on the testimony from the original trial. The problem isn't the likelihood but the consequences. The prison terms being sought were 10 years. An you KNOW that under the current administration, the DOJ would gleefully press charges against someone who dared to use a firearm defensively if the excuse of Federal property were somehow involved.

I did find this from a concealed carry group. https://www.usacarry.com/carrying-conce ... st-office/ It was as close to answering the question that you and I have as I could come up with. On one level, it fascinates me that I can drive to Yellowstone and be perfectly legal carrying my Texas licensed firearm among hundreds of tourists watching Old Faithful but am a threat to humanity if I drive onto Postal property to use the drop off mail box. But I've stopped trying to make sense of what the Federal folks think that I should and shouldn't do. I also have given up hope that law abiding people will be acknowledged in Federal law.

[ScottDLS]

So, I have a question, since this thread was "brought back to life". Does anyone know of any case law where a person's vehicle was searched without other provocation (an altercation, other crime committed, etc.) while parked in the open-to-the-public parking lot of a Post Office, a firearm was discovered, and the person was prosecuted and convicted of a violation of Federal law, resulting in fine or imprisonment? Additionally, if that case law can be pointed out, does anyone know exactly which portion of Federal code was used in said prosecution? Inquiring minds want to know...

I had the same question. I searched and searched. I could never find a case where Federal charges on firearms were made without some other condition - drug sales, etc. involved. The feedback from Corps employees on firearm carry on USACE property is the same - nothing is going to happen unless there is some other condition. There are some cases where someone used a firearm in self-defense and was acquitted of murder charges only to have Federal charges filed afterward, based on the testimony from the original trial. The problem isn't the likelihood but the consequences. The prison terms being sought were 10 years. An you KNOW that under the current administration, the DOJ would gleefully press charges against someone who dared to use a firearm defensively if the excuse of Federal property were somehow involved.

I did find this from a concealed carry group. https://www.usacarry.com/carrying-conce ... st-office/ It was as close to answering the question that you and I have as I could come up with. On one level, it fascinates me that I can drive to Yellowstone and be perfectly legal carrying my Texas licensed firearm among hundreds of tourists watching Old Faithful but am a threat to humanity if I drive onto Postal property to use the drop off mail box. But I've stopped trying to make sense of what the Federal folks think that I should and shouldn't do. I also have given up hope that law abiding people will be acknowledged in Federal law.

I think way back in this thread is some further analysis. The net of the court decisions and very few prosecutions (one or two) that have ever happened is that there is a Federal criminal law 18 USC 930 that generally prohibits carry in Federal buildings and makes it a federal misdemeanor (up to 1yr in jail, $10,000-100,000 fine). Courts have (wrongly IMO) decided that Post Offices are federal buildings. Also important to note in this law is that parking lots are specifically excluded from prohibition (with some exceptions for Federal courts).

So as to the authority for banning firearms on the "property" of post offices, you have to go the federal law that governs postal property and operations. I'm too busy to look it up, though I think I did years ago in this thread. In any case, there are federal regulations that are enabled by this law (all regs must have enabling legislation). The prohibition on firearms is in a regulation that also governs things like tearing down handbills, protesting, and illegally parking. The maximum penalty for violating this reg is a federal infraction (similar to a citation) with a max penalty of 30 days in jail and $1000 fine. It used to be a $50 fine and speeding tickets in National Parks are infractions too, jail almost never happens. So basically it is the federal version of a class C misdemeanor ticket in Texas, with the theoretical exception that you could get 30 days.

The other question is whether the regulation actually applies to leaving a gun in your vehicle and to the general public. The only case ever prosecuted that I could find was a postal employee, who was originally charged with 18 USC 930, until his lawyer proved he didn't have the gun in the building, but rather in the employee parking lot. Also, there are no signs on postal property (that I've seen) prohibiting carry on the property, only the ones required by 18 USC 930 on the building entrances. I believe Chas. also mentioned in this thread or another one a case of a NASA employee charged with a parking lot violation under a similar CFR and was acquitted due to no sign or written policy made known to the public/employees.

[BigGuy]

I'm a Level III Security Officer, which gives me no right to carry on Federal property. But would the clause cited above give me coverage if I stop by the PO on the way to or from work? Normally when I go to the PO, it's a single destination trip and I don't carry at all as even pulling in the parking lot and leaving the weapon in the car is (to my understanding) a felony, as the parking lot is also Federal property.

[Dragonfighter]

It is still Federal Property so Federal rules apply.

I thought it wasn't federal property but there was some kind of rule=law provision as the are acting under auspices of a federal agency. Been a minute since I thought about it.