What would you do?

[The Annoyed Man]

On a more serious note (from my last post). It seems Texas law allows for deadly force in protection of property, or against criminal mischief at night. I wonder if this is because deadly force doesn't HAVE to kill someone, only have the potential/possibility to.

Maybe it dates back to the cattle rustling or horse thief days. If you're in the middle of the wilderness and someone steals your horse, you may very well be dead. In that case there seems some moral as well as legal justification for shooting someone, in defense of property. As far as a TV...maybe legally justified. Morally...between you and your creator.

One situation where I might be willing to take a life is for strong arm robbery. If someone demands my wallet, clearly outsizes me, and threatens violence if they don't get it, I might shoot them. Even if I can replace the contents easily. Another situation, rape. I wouldn't hesitate to take a life even if my wasn't in danger. And I HAVE taken the LTC course multiple times...

Those are good points, and that is why good judgement is a necessary component for someone who wants to carry a gun. The above comment about being willing to kill someone over a stolen TV is EXACTLY the kind of ammunition that gun-grabbers scout this forum for, trying to find arguments for why carrying of a firearm should never be permitted.

The ethical consideration ought to be, "will the loss of this property threaten my health and/or safety"? I see no harm in drawing a gun to try and coerce the thief into putting the TV down, but if he calls my bluff, then the only steps I am willing to take would be to smack him hard with a 2x4 across the shins ..... or some similar action ..... to try and stop him. I have no compunctions about causing him pain. But I'm not willing to kill a man over a stupid TV, and I would consider anyone who is so willing to have a severely crippled moral compass with no sense of proportionality. What would that person do to his own kids for filching a couple of bucks out of his wallet when he wasn't looking? Put them in a hospital with broken bones? A person who has no sense of proportionality shouldn't ever raise kids or own a dog.

Now, if I am a very ill outpatient, with a home dialysis machine or a home chemotherapy setup, or some similar kind of medical equipment that would be not only difficult to replace, but that that would put my life at risk to be without it, and someone tried to steal it, then maybe I would go ahead and shoot that person if he disregarded my order to put it down and get down on the ground. If it was an armed robbery attempt, then regardless of what kind of property it was, I would probably shoot if given the opportunity........but in that case, it has nothing to do with the value of the property, and everything to do with being threatened with deadly force.

When you HAVE to shoot someone, then yes, it is THAT person's actions which brought about their being shot. But that justification doesn't work when you don't HAVE to do it.......and you don't HAVE to shoot someone over a TV. The law may permit it, but if you push that boundary too far, you're a moral cripple, and don't be surprised if law enforcement authorities don't share your moral sense (or lack thereof).

But over a TV?

[rotor]

Many scenarios. So the thief walks away and you didn't shoot him. You walk into your house and find your wife on the floor with a bullet in her. Many scenarios.

[The Annoyed Man]

Lets throw another little hiccup into the equation. All the same except you go into the house through the garage and the thief is inside your home.
Scenario # 1--Has a TV in hand but no visible weapon
Scenario # 2--Same as # 1 but has a holstered pistol

Scenario #1 — I draw weapon and block exit, take a cellphone picture, order him to put it down and tell him I'll step aside if he complies and let him leave peaceably. Call 911 when he leaves. He'll either leave, or we go to #2A.

Scenario #2A — I draw weapon as I enter room and block exit, get cellphone picture, order him to get down on the ground, and tell him if I see him even twitch, I'll dump a magazine-load into him. Call 911 and tell them that I am holding an armed burglar at gunpoint. He has a holstered gun, and I WILL do whatever I need to do if he so much as twitches, PLEASE get the cops here STAT! Better get an ambulance rolling too just in case.

Scenario #2B — I draw weapon as I enter room and get cellphone picture, back out of the house, call 911 and report an armed burglary in progress inside my home. To the naysayers: Yes, I already KNOW that I have the right to stand my ground. I ALSO already KNOW that I don't want to get into a gunfight over a television. As long as his hands are full of my TV, he can't draw his weapon (I have large TVs), and that gives me an opportunity to avoid a gunfight.........over a stupid TV.

Scenario #2C — I draw my weapon as I enter room and block exit, he drops TV and attempts to draw his weapon. I drill him 15 times before he can get his into action, reload, call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance.

[E.Marquez]

What do you do?

tex

Take a video or picture and waive good by.
He is the cops problem now, not mine. I'll be a good witness, offer my assistance in a line up or in court and call it a day.

[dawgfishboy]

Scenario #1 — I draw weapon and block exit, take a cellphone picture...
Scenario #2A — I draw weapon as I enter room and block exit, get cellphone picture...
Scenario #2B — I draw weapon as I enter room and get cellphone picture...

Your off-hand phone draw must be impressive. By chance do you have one of these?

[JustSomeOldGuy]

]Your off-hand phone draw must be impressive. By chance do you have one of these?

Ah so. Fastest phone in the far east.....
But I much prefer the 1800's gambler in ruffled shirt and frock coat who's sleeve device pops out either a derringer or a couple of extra aces

[thetexan]

The important thing to remember is your authority to use deadly force.

Many times the gun pointed at the perpetrator is a bluff because if he just decides to get up and walk away without threatening you then there isn't much you can do with the gun. You just stand there looking stupid.

And since the threshold for deadly force to protect personal property, especially during the day, is high, the gun would generally be a empty threat. So much so that if the perpetrator knew his stuff he would not be intimidated by the threat...unless he thought you were a psycho crazed out-of-you-mind, lunatic, trigger-happy, death-loving maniac.

Then you might have his undivided attention.

tex

[The Annoyed Man]

.....if the perpetrator knew his stuff he would not be intimidated by the threat...unless he thought you were a psycho crazed out-of-you-mind, lunatic, trigger-happy, death-loving maniac.

Then you might have his undivided attention.

tex

Hey, I can act!

[stroo]

Given my physical limitations, I would consider any male intruder into my home as armed whether I can see a weapon or not. Given that there isn't a lot of space in my home, at most 20 feet and that things can go south real fast, regardless of scenario 1 or 2, I am telling him to drop the TV and drop to the floor. If that doesn't happen real fast, I am shooting and then calling 911. If he is in my home, this isn't about a TV or property anymore. This is about my life or the life of my wife. I am not taking chances with those.

[thetexan]

Given my physical limitations, I would consider any male intruder into my home as armed whether I can see a weapon or not. Given that there isn't a lot of space in my home, at most 20 feet and that things can go south real fast, regardless of scenario 1 or 2, I am telling him to drop the TV and drop to the floor. If that doesn't happen real fast, I am shooting and then calling 911. If he is in my home, this isn't about a TV or property anymore. This is about my life or the life of my wife. I am not taking chances with those.

And if he's in your home by force that's all you need.

tex

[treadlightly]

As you pull into your driveway during the day you notice a person coming out of your garage. You stop and get out and pull gun and tell him to freeze which he does. You call the police and they are on their way.

The intruder then decides to casually start to walk away disputed the fact that you are pointing the gun at him and telling him don't move.

What do you do?

tex

If he's leaving, my immediate problem may be solved. There would need to be something compelling, like a threat to family members not in the car with me, to get me to leave the car or draw a weapon.

[AdioSS]

Forget the tv or set of golf clubs. If they have taken the time to break into your home then maybe they have also taken the time to break into your safe & are now in possession of at least one of your firearms. Maybe one of your pistols is tucked into their pants under their shirt where you cannot see it, like many criminals are known to do....

Who here still thinks it would be best to just let them walk away?

[rotor]

If he is carrying your TV there is an accomplice somewhere also. These guys don't work alone.

[thetexan]

If the guy has my new 60" tv in his arms I will consider that a personal threat to my wellbeing and my weekend.

THAT will not stand.

You can have my golf clubs. You can have my car. You can even take my wife.

DO NOT mess with the TV.

[Bolton Strid]

As you pull into your driveway during the day you notice a person coming out of your garage. You stop and get out and pull gun and tell him to freeze which he does. You call the police and they are on their way.

The intruder then decides to casually start to walk away disputed the fact that you are pointing the gun at him and telling him don't move.

What do you do?

tex

I'll take this as something that happened to you personally, or perhaps someone you know? I’ll speak from my own personal experiences - sounds like the classic tweaker burglary to me – I wouldn’t expect any of those to be caught dragging your entertainment center down the street, but lacking other means of carry, would certainly have your property that is concealable stuffed in his pockets and down his pants, though they commonly prowl with backpacks or if female, large over-the-shoulder purses if not with backpacks too. They may have a bicycle with them or nearby that not only broadens their range of prowling, facilitates quick getaways but also helps carry larger items, or larger amounts of items if they feel they can risk it. You really don’t want any of them to make it off your property if you can help it or if it can’t be helped, don’t lose sight of them in the process or chances of you ever getting your stuff back drop dramatically. Some may say let the insurance take care of it, but is every little nick-knack on your insurance to begin with, is it provable that it IS yours, what kind of deductible is involved, and also there are things that just cannot be replaced at any price. So, the cops show, they get the goon to empty out pockets, purses, backpacks, whatever and the squalling starts as to what belongs to who – yeah, they’ll protest how various things are “theirs”, which depending on the jurisdiction and circumstances involved at the time, may make things dicey. You may recover your loot right then and there. It could turn out that all the cops can do is spread the stuff out, take photos of it for later reference and release them. Or if there is an arrest your stuff could end up as locked away as evidence for who knows how long. Or something somewhere in between. Meanwhile, you have something like a broken up window or kicked-in door & doorframe to deal with. An alternative to gunplay, clubs or whatever can be simply talking – it’s possible – though not 100% probable – that depending on what state of mind a tweaker (if that’s what he/she is) is in at that time, you could get them hung up in a loop of explaining and talking about who they are, what they’re doing, how’s the weather and so forth, so that they’re still standing there trying to babble out an elaborate yarn to please you with when the cops finally roll up.

If you detect scroungy strangers with hoodies, backpacks and the sort who are making it a habit of messing around in your area and at odd times, it's best to be proactive and put some pressure on them to find somewhere else to lurk. Get law enforcement to drive by and have a word with them - you might not only prevent a new crime but solve some old ones in the process.

The next minute and a half or so of this vid (from the 10 minute mark to 11:35) demonstrates quite well as to some of the kind of prowlers I’m talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6LaDJYOTvg&t=10m0s

Welcome to tweakertown, yo.