Convince me that constitutional carry is a good thing

[AdioSS]

I thought I replied when this thread first came up, but I guess not.

How about you convince me that Constitutional Carry is NOT a good thing?

[rotor]

Every adult has the inherent right to vote, carry a gun, speak out on political and other matters, etc. So given that these are rights we all have, if the state believes that education is needed to exercise them in a safe and responsible manner, then the state should include those education requirements in our standard curriculums.

Agree with much of what you say. But, have you ever been in the military? You give up many of your inherent rights serving your country.

[Soccerdad1995]

Every adult has the inherent right to vote, carry a gun, speak out on political and other matters, etc. So given that these are rights we all have, if the state believes that education is needed to exercise them in a safe and responsible manner, then the state should include those education requirements in our standard curriculums.

Agree with much of what you say. But, have you ever been in the military? You give up many of your inherent rights serving your country.

Yes. I spent 4 years in the military and I knowingly chose to temporarily give up some of my rights for that opportunity.

I don't understand what this type of voluntarily decision has to do with the rights that we inherently have as U.S. citizens. And yes, I understand and agree with the right of the government to forcibly take away some rights if you have been convicted of a felony, etc.

The argument that I was responding to was along the lines of "yes, we have rights, but the exercise of some rights is potentially dangerous, so we should educate people on how to exercise them responsibly". I agree with this sentiment 100%. Since we are talking about rights that we are all born with, then I think the necessary education should be a part of our required curriculum in every school. This should include, but not be limited to civics education so people can exercise their right to vote in a responsible manner, and the aspects of gun related training I mentioned so we can all exercise our right to keep and bear arms in a responsible manner.

[rotor]

Every adult has the inherent right to vote, carry a gun, speak out on political and other matters, etc. So given that these are rights we all have, if the state believes that education is needed to exercise them in a safe and responsible manner, then the state should include those education requirements in our standard curriculums.

Agree with much of what you say. But, have you ever been in the military? You give up many of your inherent rights serving your country.

Yes. I spent 4 years in the military and I knowingly chose to temporarily give up some of my rights for that opportunity.

I don't understand what this type of voluntarily decision has to do with the rights that we inherently have as U.S. citizens. And yes, I understand and agree with the right of the government to forcibly take away some rights if you have been convicted of a felony, etc.

The argument that I was responding to was along the lines of "yes, we have rights, but the exercise of some rights is potentially dangerous, so we should educate people on how to exercise them responsibly". I agree with this sentiment 100%. Since we are talking about rights that we are all born with, then I think the necessary education should be a part of our required curriculum in every school. This should include, but not be limited to civics education so people can exercise their right to vote in a responsible manner, and the aspects of gun related training I mentioned so we can all exercise our right to keep and bear arms in a responsible manner.

I agree with you. Just pointing out that our inherent rights are not absolute, our military people do not have many of them and although I was a volunteer it was a time that the military was not all volunteer. I would love to see gun safety taught in school. We would still be talking the King's English if our forefathers didn't know how to use their guns.

[anygunanywhere]

It is rather odd that the only ones who give up certain inalienable rights when they swear an oath before God to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic is the military. The military even falls under the UCMJ as well as civil and criminal laws of the US and the 50 states.

Yet, most of those who swear to the same oath in supposed service to our states or the United States give up nothing and ignore the constitution or spit on it.

This makes me angrier when considering all of the infringement my rights have suffered and continue to suffer.

As pointed out by a recent poster, no matter how many laws are enacted criminalizing firearms use, criminals will still disobey the law.

I want to point out that no matter how much training in firearm safety is available, people will still be stupid with firearms. Stupid people do stupid things.

Neither stupid people nor criminals can be used as a reason to infringe on my rights.

[OlBill]

Every adult has the inherent right to vote, carry a gun, speak out on political and other matters, etc. So given that these are rights we all have, if the state believes that education is needed to exercise them in a safe and responsible manner, then the state should include those education requirements in our standard curriculums.

Agree with much of what you say. But, have you ever been in the military? You give up many of your inherent rights serving your country.

What rights did I give up?

[rotor]

Every adult has the inherent right to vote, carry a gun, speak out on political and other matters, etc. So given that these are rights we all have, if the state believes that education is needed to exercise them in a safe and responsible manner, then the state should include those education requirements in our standard curriculums.

Agree with much of what you say. But, have you ever been in the military? You give up many of your inherent rights serving your country.

What rights did I give up?

Were you active duty? If so, you gave up the right to put a political bumper sticker on your car, you gave up the right to be politically active, you gave up many of your 2A rights, you gave up the right to even get married without permission of your CO, you gave up the right of free speech essentially. You gave up these rights while active duty. For many you also gave up the right to vote especially if your mail in ballot never got in while overseas. Many gave up their right to live. Certainly many gave up and still don't have their right to promised health care. When I left the service I was reminded that I would not be able to get a haircut so inexpensively in the civilian world. I did not consider that an inducement to staying in.

[OlBill]

Every adult has the inherent right to vote, carry a gun, speak out on political and other matters, etc. So given that these are rights we all have, if the state believes that education is needed to exercise them in a safe and responsible manner, then the state should include those education requirements in our standard curriculums.

Agree with much of what you say. But, have you ever been in the military? You give up many of your inherent rights serving your country.

What rights did I give up?

Were you active duty? If so, you gave up the right to put a political bumper sticker on your car, you gave up the right to be politically active, you gave up many of your 2A rights, you gave up the right to even get married without permission of your CO, you gave up the right of free speech essentially. You gave up these rights while active duty. For many you also gave up the right to vote especially if your mail in ballot never got in while overseas. Many gave up their right to live. Certainly many gave up and still don't have their right to promised health care. When I left the service I was reminded that I would not be able to get a haircut so inexpensively in the civilian world. I did not consider that an inducement to staying in.

Yes, 15 years.

Soldiers can be politically active, they must can't do it in uniform.

I didn't give up any 2nd Amendment rights more than a civilian. I had a permit from the state and carried all the time.

I got married twice and didn't get permission either time.

Right to live?

There's a lot if misconceptions in your post.

[OlBill]

Healthcare?

I was a SF Medic, I helped in those clinics and hospitals. Every medical need I had was taken care of, including a broken back.

I had a step son with Tourettes. The Army arranged for him to get treatment at Duke University medical center. Even paid for my gas to drive him up there.

I guess experiences vary.

[rotor]

Soldiers can be politically active, they must can't do it in uniform.

I didn't give up any 2nd Amendment rights more than a civilian. I had a permit from the state and carried all the time.

I got married twice and didn't get permission either time.

Right to live?

There's a lot if misconceptions in your post.

I got out in 1980. Maybe things have changed since. Thousands on secret VA waiting lists now doesn't sound like health care needs are being met for our vets. I also lived on base and didn't have those 2A rights. You carried on base? Not in any base I was ever in. You think your medical care was state of the art? I can tell you it wasn't from direct experience. Adequate but not state of the art. Why do you think we have "Wounded Warrior" asking for money? All this needs to be a different thread though as off topic.

[Liberty]

The right to vote was sacrificed for many of us. the absentee ballots almost never got out to us in tim at least during the early 70s. The one right I lost that I most detested was the right to come and go as I please. Some posts required a pass (written permission) to leave the post. The concept of not being able to quit my job whenever I wanted without criminal repercussions was the main reason I didn't re=up. When you are in an enlisted man in the Army, you are property of the Army.

[ScottDLS]

The right to vote was sacrificed for many of us. the absentee ballots almost never got out to us in tim at least during the early 70s. The one right I lost that I most detested was the right to come and go as I please. Some posts required a pass (written permission) to leave the post. The concept of not being able to quit my job whenever I wanted without criminal repercussions was the main reason I didn't re=up. When you are in an enlisted man in the Army, you are property of the Army.

You don't "give up your inherent rights" when joining or being drafted into the military. You just have to exercise them in accordance with the law (in this case UCMJ). You are not the "property" of the United States after enlistment, you are a member of the Armed Forces of which the President is the commander in chief. You must obey the lawful (i.e. Constitutional) orders of the President and the officers he appoints. An officer is an inferior officer (to the President) of the United States and is vested with whatever power the President chooses to delegate to him, subject to the law and Constitution. All commissioned offices must be authorized by Congress and the officers filling them in some cases must be confirmed by the Senate. It is a myth that you "give up your Constitutional rights upon entry into the military". You simply agree (or are required) to exercise them in accordance with following the law and lawful orders in a different manner than you would as a civilian.

[Liberty]

We were subject to search and seizure, for any or no reason. Not complying to direct orders subjected us to imprisonment. We were told where we must live.

The rules that we were to live buy were enforcible by force or imprisonment. No civilian is required by our constitution to risk ones lives by force of criminal law. I personally had volunteered, but many were drafted.

[Lambda Force]

I don't know what all that has to do with the topic subject but excuse me for a minute while I make some popcorn.

[ScottDLS]

We were subject to search and seizure, for any or no reason. Not complying to direct orders subjected us to imprisonment. We were told where we must live.

The rules that we were to live buy were enforcible by force or imprisonment. No civilian is required by our constitution to risk ones lives by force of criminal law. I personally had volunteered, but many were drafted.

Search and seizure in the context of a base, aircraft, or vessel, or while performing duties under orders, does not constitute an "unreasonable search and seizure" under the 4th amendment. Likewise if you agreed to search at your civilian employer as a condition of employment, they could enforce it civilly by firing you. If you're on the Army base as part of your service and they want to search you to see if you're complying with lawful orders, then they legally can, and enforce the requirement criminally under the UCMJ.

Not complying with direct lawful orders of the Commander in Chief or those to whom he has delegated his command authority (officers, NCO's), is illegal and unconstitutional. The President is made CinC by Article II. It's no wonder it is criminally punishable.

The draft has been found Constitutional and not a violation of the 13th amendment, when enacted by Congress in accordance with its Article I power to "raise Armies, Navies, etc...."

The Constitution grants the power to do all the things that people are saying are unconstitutional usurpations of military members' rights. Most of it is in Article I Section 8, and the rest derives from the power of the Executive to be CinC and appoint officers.

Article I Section 8
...
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of
Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two
Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the
land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws
of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the
Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be
employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to
the States respectively, the Appointment of the Offi cers,
and the Authority of training the Militia according to the
discipline prescribed by Congress;
...

This information is covered in commissioned officer accession programs (Service Academies, ROTC, OCS, etc.), though I suspect most people don't understand it at the time. I know I didn't. I was a commissioned officer in the Navy for a few years and I really didn't like it, so I got out when my time was up. And truthfully it was for many of the reasons cited above, but not because what the military does is unconstitutional, it just annoyed the heck out of me. I guess it's somewhat semantics, but I think it's important to understand that the military functions constitutionally under the same rule of law that all of the United States do.