Convince me that constitutional carry is a good thing

[nlyric]

Constitutional carry in other states has more then doubled in what 2 years. Texas should be a leader in this. Went from something like 5 to 11. And if you factor in states that require no licence for OC, we are really put to shame on the liberty front.... No train, no fee, no problem.
All these fears are unfounded IMO...
And I don't buy this giving up on HB 375 even before the ink is even dry because of some unforseen political wisdom. We saw what happened with all that political prophecy a couple of Tuesdays ago. If you believe in it fight for it.....

[mojo84]

Constitutional carry and it merits have already been discussed in this thread and many others. http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 42&t=85455

[mojo84]

Courtesy of Stickland.

https://empowertexans.com/features/stic ... egislation

State Rep. Jonathan Stickland (R–Bedford) filed “constitutional carry” legislation to remove the licensing requirement for Texans to carry a handgun openly or concealed. Stickland’s bill, HB 375, would maintain the licensing process for citizens who wish to obtain a license and enjoy reciprocity in other states.
“It is time in Texas to restore our Second Amendment rights to their originally intended level,” said Stickland. “No Texan should have to pay a fee or take a class to exercise their right to bear arms.”

Stickland is not the standard bearer I want for this or any other bill. He has little to no respect from other legislators. The only ones that seem to have any real respect for him are other legislators that have been marginalized either due to their own actions or the House Leadership.

[Charles L. Cotton]

First let me acknowledge that this is your house, and your dinner party. If you don’t want something to discuss something that is most certainly your prerogative.

I have no idea why you posted this.

Re: unlicensed carry- I certainly believe you support it, but as an LTC instructor who benefits from the current licensing program I believe this could be seen as a conflict of priorities. I am also 100% sure that the fees you collect from teaching classes aren’t a big part of your income. I suspect that being an attorney pays better than being an instructor.

There's no conflict of interest. If I was teaching for the money, I'd stay in my office an bill clients $350/hr. I also give free classes to a lot of people. If I was concerned about teaching revenue, I would not have supported repeal of the requirement for renewal classes. That resulted in a very large reduction of the market for LTC instructors. I also would not have started the effort, then supported it, to reduce the LTC class from 10hrs to 4hrs. This resulted in most instructors, including me, significantly reducing the class fee.

Is it my desire that good people not get into legal trouble because of a lack of knowledge?

The fact is that people just do not get charged with violating school zones all that often. Although the data is old, according to “Americans for Gun Safety” only 40 cases were brought from 2000-2002. Also, according to the NRA federal prosecution of gun crimes is down 40% since Obama took office.
“Federal prosecutors filed only 40 cases against those who brought a gun onto school property”
http://content.thirdway.org/publication ... gnored.pdf
“Jennifer Baker of the NRA cited her group's calculation that federal gun prosecutions have declined 40% under Obama's administration, after peaking in 2004.”
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/09/politics/ ... ement-gap/

There are two problems with your argument. First, I'm not talking about only the federal gun free school zones. Based upon the questions I get in the use of force portion of the LTC class, a very large percentage of people have no idea what Texas law is concerning the use of force in self-defense or defense of property. Far too many developed their misunderstanding from TV shows and slanted news reports. That's a major concern for anyone who cares about our fellow Texans surviving not only a deadly assault, but the legal system afterwards.

As for the federal gun free school zone law, yes, few people are prosecuted. However, only a small percentage of all citizens are attacked and need to use their firearm in self-defense. Percentages mean nothing when you are one of the unlucky ones to be attacked, or convicted of a federal felony for violating the federal gun free school zone law.

Is it my concern that good people may be injured or killed in a self-defense situation because they do not have the skill at arms to defend themselves?

I think this is great and I feel the same way. This is however I no way related to licensed or unlicensed carry. LTC classes do not have a “skills” portion and it is every gun owners (or chainsaw owner, or 4 wheeler owner, etc.) to take the personal responsibility of learning how to use this tool correctly.

I agree that the range qualification does not even allow firearms instruction, much less what I would consider intermediate or advanced training. However, it does insure that people can have a reasonable score when shooting at likely self-defense distances under reasonable self-defense time constraints. I have students with skill sets all over the spectrum. Most of the marginal students learned or practiced before the class. Since they did not do so until they knew they had to meet the shooting requirement of the course, it's unlikely they would have learned or practiced had the law not required it. Again, I'm not saying this makes them an "operator," but in many cases it forces people to get some experience with their self-defense handgun.

Or is it the fact that I know the Legislature's opinion of unlicensed carry at this point in time?

I whole heartedly believe this as well, I just wish we had a better game time attitude. You are, and have been for many years, the leader when it comes to pushing forward LTC rights. I equate you stating publicly that CC is DOA with a Football Coach coming out on game day and telling the team “hey guys, we aren’t going to be champions, but let me tell you what games we can win.”
No matter how factual this is, I don’t think admitting failure before the game starts helps any of us.

Sports analogies are popular, but they often don't fit the scenario. Passing legislation is not a game and false bravado often coming from coaches and sports figures do not help them win game and it certainly doesn't help to pass bills. Also, I consider a successful legislative session to be one during which we pass pro-gun legislation and kill anti-gun legislation. Some sessions are more productive than others, but no session rises or falls on a single bill or issue.

My statement about unlicensed carry was not a revelation to the legislature; they know it. In fact, that's where I get much of my information. My motive for stating the facts is at least two-fold. First, I'm being honest, unlike some organizations and their leaders who promise the moon, then fail to produce any results. Sure, they take credit for NRA and TSRA successes, but even a blind man can see the truth. (We saw that last session.) Another reason I made the statement is so people would not be tempted to promote a bill that has no chance of passage, and do so in a manner that makes it harder to pass other pro-gun bills. (We saw that last session too.)

I will begrudgingly use your sports analogy. If I were a professional football coach and told my team's fans that "we are going to be undefeated in both the preseason and the regular season," I would look like a fool. Most people would discount my honesty and candor, while a few might believe my bravado and be sorely disappointed when it didn't happen.

This isn't a sports analogy, but it deals directly with my profession as an attorney. I tell every client the good, the bad and the ugly of their case. That way they know their chances before they decide to hire me and spend money. That's just being honest. I know attorneys who tell their clients what they want to hear, then they start the billing machine. That's dishonest in my view. As an NRA Board member, if I tell people unlicensed carry has a chance in 2017, it encourages them to invest their time, efforts, hopes and perhaps money into a futile effort. This will likely lead to them not being as willing to get involved in future legislative efforts.

While telling people what they want to hear may lead to short-term happiness, it leads to long-term dissatisfaction and disenchantment. Telling people the truth may anger them, but at the end of the day they will know you are honest.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Courtesy of Stickland.

https://empowertexans.com/features/stic ... egislation

State Rep. Jonathan Stickland (R–Bedford) filed “constitutional carry” legislation to remove the licensing requirement for Texans to carry a handgun openly or concealed. Stickland’s bill, HB 375, would maintain the licensing process for citizens who wish to obtain a license and enjoy reciprocity in other states.
“It is time in Texas to restore our Second Amendment rights to their originally intended level,” said Stickland. “No Texan should have to pay a fee or take a class to exercise their right to bear arms.”

Stickland is not the standard bearer I want for this or any other bill. He has little to no respect from other legislators. The only ones that seem to have any real respect for him are other legislators that have been marginalized either due to their own actions or the House Leadership.

Getting a bill filed is relatively easy. The key to success is having a bill filed by someone who is respected in the House or Senate and who has the clout to 1) get committee hearings, 2) get supportive votes in the committee so as to get it out of committee; 3) get a bill out of the Calendar's Committee in the House or the requisite number of votes in the Senate to suspend the rules; and 4) get his/her colleagues to vote for the bill on the floor.

Chas.

[bblhd672]

The left has been chipping away slowly and surely at the 2A for decades. Charles and people like him are slowly chipping away at the restrictions on our freedom. Rarely can you overturn everything that has been incrementally put in to law in one big bill.

I fully support Charles' logic and reasoning on how the people representing us, those elected who believe in the 2A as much as we do are working to overcome the years of work done by the freedom and gun grabbers.

[mojo84]

Courtesy of Stickland.

https://empowertexans.com/features/stic ... egislation

State Rep. Jonathan Stickland (R–Bedford) filed “constitutional carry” legislation to remove the licensing requirement for Texans to carry a handgun openly or concealed. Stickland’s bill, HB 375, would maintain the licensing process for citizens who wish to obtain a license and enjoy reciprocity in other states.
“It is time in Texas to restore our Second Amendment rights to their originally intended level,” said Stickland. “No Texan should have to pay a fee or take a class to exercise their right to bear arms.”

Stickland is not the standard bearer I want for this or any other bill. He has little to no respect from other legislators. The only ones that seem to have any real respect for him are other legislators that have been marginalized either due to their own actions or the House Leadership.

Getting a bill filed is relatively easy. The key to success is having a bill filed by someone who is respected in the House or Senate and who has the clout to 1) get committee hearings, 2) get supportive votes in the committee so as to get it out of committee; 3) get a bill out of the Calendar's Committee in the House or the requisite number of votes in the Senate to suspend the rules; and 4) get his/her colleagues to vote for the bill on the floor.

Chas.

I believe our points are similar. You disagree or are you expounding upon what I said?

[Jusme]

I fully agree with Charles,
While we may want "Constitutional" or "unrestricted" carry in Texas, there is still not enough support in the Legislature for such a measure. Charles, has a much better idea of the pulse of the law makers than I do, but the ones I have spoken with have listed the myriad of problems even among their own constituents, with getting it introduced.
One of the first things they have said to me, is that even among conservatives, and conservative gun owners, there is still a lot of fear that "some idiot" will do something to make gun owners look bad, which will start to reverse the progress we have made in the past 20+ years, secondly, there is still the old school way of thinking even among conservative, native Texans, due to years of being indoctrinated that way, that rifles and shotguns for hunting are fine, but handguns are only for killing people. Therefore they are, even after years of evidence to change their minds, still of the mind set that only cops and criminals carry handguns.

These are the people that go to polls, and vote, so they do have to respect and defend the positions of folks like this.

Thirdly, and this is only my observations, with the large influx of people from other states, mostly left leaning, the issues we hold dear, are not even on their radar, so they will not automatically vote for representatives who try to protect or promote 2A rights. We must be vigilant to not lose any ground, but we must also understand that change takes time, and while we are currently riding a tide of conservative values, Texas has not always swung that way, and is very close to having the tide go back out very quickly.

[bblhd672]

I fully agree with Charles,
While we may want "Constitutional" or "unrestricted" carry in Texas, there is still not enough support in the Legislature for such a measure. Charles, has a much better idea of the pulse of the law makers than I do, but the ones I have spoken with have listed the myriad of problems even among their own constituents, with getting it introduced.
One of the first things they have said to me, is that even among conservatives, and conservative gun owners, there is still a lot of fear that "some idiot" will do something to make gun owners look bad, which will start to reverse the progress we have made in the past 20+ years, secondly, there is still the old school way of thinking even among conservative, native Texans, due to years of being indoctrinated that way, that rifles and shotguns for hunting are fine, but handguns are only for killing people. Therefore they are, even after years of evidence to change their minds, still of the mind set that only cops and criminals carry handguns.

These are the people that go to polls, and vote, so they do have to respect and defend the positions of folks like this.

Thirdly, and this is only my observations, with the large influx of people from other states, mostly left leaning, the issues we hold dear, are not even on their radar, so they will not automatically vote for representatives who try to protect or promote 2A rights. We must be vigilant to not lose any ground, but we must also understand that change takes time, and while we are currently riding a tide of conservative values, Texas has not always swung that way, and is very close to having the tide go back out very quickly.

Well stated

[Charles L. Cotton]

Courtesy of Stickland.

https://empowertexans.com/features/stic ... egislation

State Rep. Jonathan Stickland (R–Bedford) filed “constitutional carry” legislation to remove the licensing requirement for Texans to carry a handgun openly or concealed. Stickland’s bill, HB 375, would maintain the licensing process for citizens who wish to obtain a license and enjoy reciprocity in other states.
“It is time in Texas to restore our Second Amendment rights to their originally intended level,” said Stickland. “No Texan should have to pay a fee or take a class to exercise their right to bear arms.”

Stickland is not the standard bearer I want for this or any other bill. He has little to no respect from other legislators. The only ones that seem to have any real respect for him are other legislators that have been marginalized either due to their own actions or the House Leadership.

Getting a bill filed is relatively easy. The key to success is having a bill filed by someone who is respected in the House or Senate and who has the clout to 1) get committee hearings, 2) get supportive votes in the committee so as to get it out of committee; 3) get a bill out of the Calendar's Committee in the House or the requisite number of votes in the Senate to suspend the rules; and 4) get his/her colleagues to vote for the bill on the floor.

Chas.

I believe our points are similar. You disagree or are you expounding upon what I said?

I agree with your post completely. I was expounding on your comments.

Chas.

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Short answer: The Jeffersonian/Libertarian standard that "The government that governs the least, governs best".

On the other side of the coin, I will observe that, up until the '60's, there WAS a government firearms safety training program that was MANDATORY for the majority of the male population (which was the lions share of firearms users). It was called 'the draft', aka "Greetings from Selective Service".

[mojo84]

Courtesy of Stickland.

https://empowertexans.com/features/stic ... egislation

State Rep. Jonathan Stickland (R–Bedford) filed “constitutional carry” legislation to remove the licensing requirement for Texans to carry a handgun openly or concealed. Stickland’s bill, HB 375, would maintain the licensing process for citizens who wish to obtain a license and enjoy reciprocity in other states.
“It is time in Texas to restore our Second Amendment rights to their originally intended level,” said Stickland. “No Texan should have to pay a fee or take a class to exercise their right to bear arms.”

Stickland is not the standard bearer I want for this or any other bill. He has little to no respect from other legislators. The only ones that seem to have any real respect for him are other legislators that have been marginalized either due to their own actions or the House Leadership.

Getting a bill filed is relatively easy. The key to success is having a bill filed by someone who is respected in the House or Senate and who has the clout to 1) get committee hearings, 2) get supportive votes in the committee so as to get it out of committee; 3) get a bill out of the Calendar's Committee in the House or the requisite number of votes in the Senate to suspend the rules; and 4) get his/her colleagues to vote for the bill on the floor.

Chas.

I believe our points are similar. You disagree or are you expounding upon what I said?

I agree with your post completely. I was expounding on your comments.

Chas.

Gotcha.

[nightmare69]

If constitutional carry was passed would that mean the end to TPC 06/07?

As far as the proficiency requirement, I believe training a good thing, honesty it's a great thing but it shouldn't be a requirement to excercise a constitutional right.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Constitutional carry in other states has more then doubled in what 2 years. Texas should be a leader in this. Went from something like 5 to 11. And if you factor in states that require no licence for OC, we are really put to shame on the liberty front.... No train, no fee, no problem.
All these fears are unfounded IMO...
And I don't buy this giving up on HB 375 even before the ink is even dry because of some unforseen political wisdom. We saw what happened with all that political prophecy a couple of Tuesdays ago. If you believe in it fight for it.....

1. Move to one of those states so you will live happily and have nothing about which to complain. You also won't have to be ashamed of Texas any longer;
2. Promote HB375 all you like. Just don't expect experienced people to follow you down that rabbit trail.

Chas.

[jason812]

More than 2 years ago I would have been on the "it's my rights and nothing else will be acceptable" bandwagon. After joining this forum and reading, I have leaned a lot about how the sausage is made and realize slow and steady is how we will get to unlicensed carry. I believe that if it were a possibility it would happen. For now, let's get the restrictions removed from where we cannot carry. I would love it if the 30.06 signs would disappear. I would also give up drinking a beer at a ballgame if I could carry at a pro ballpark. I trust movement will happen and it might not be as much as I want but from learning from Mr. Cotton, we are heading in the right direction just not as fast as some or me would like. Also, I have learned from Mr. Cotton that my NRA dues actually are put to good use. They do more behind the scenes than is made public.