Worst LTC Student?

[hovercat]

Would the gentleman firing 9mm Luger in a 9mm Makarov count?
A few rounds fired, then it locked up tight. He borrowed a gun from the instructor to complete.
I talked him into taking it to the smith at the range, instead of beating it out himself. It had locked up on a live round.

[Teamless]

1 - I was assisting in an LTC class that my company put on, using a very experienced instructor.
We had about 15 in the class, and shot the qualifications in 2 squads.

1 of the shooters, was having difficulty in understanding what was being said, and when the group was told to "Fire 1 round", he would empty the magazine.
He also a couple of times swept people around him, as well as himself in the lower extremities
He was educated a couple of times and finally stopped sweeping people.
However, he never could get it through his head to shoot the # of rounds told
At one time, after about 20 shots in and after a reload, he shot a blank target next to his (it was set up for the next squad)
He did shoot a good score on that target, but was about 3 feet away from where he was supposed to be shooting at!

2 - in the same class, there was a person who was inexperienced, but had shot enough to know she could handle the weapon.
She had shot several times with her husband before, but I have a feeling he was doing all of the loading of the magazines, as she loaded an entire magazine with the rounds in backwards

3 - Our company did a class has done classes 3 times now, starting in 2011 (nice they want to encourage us to have our CHL/LTC, bad is that they do not allow us to carry in the business (legally prevent us with the proper notifications)
at a class we did in 2013, I brought several of my guns for people to use if needed, and only one person needed to borrow one as his wife was using his gun for the class.
he had shot many times and was a very good shot, but was having 'test anxiety'. he loaded the magazine properly, but when he tried to insert it into the gun, he tried to put it in backwards and jammed the mag in. I was able to get it out, with a bit of muscle, but wow... Never thought that would happen.

[The Annoyed Man]

When I took my class 4 years ago I was amazed at the number of people that needed to borrow a gun. My wife took the class with me and didn't have a pistol, so we shared my pistol and shot in different rounds. To this day, she has yet to carry even once. You really should already have a pistol before getting your LTC; how else are you going to practice before carrying?

It also really amazed that the guy standing next to me passed. When we were shooting the longer ranges, I would see two flashes when he shot. One was the muzzle flash and the other was the bullet striking the concrete on the ground at the end of the course. He passed because they scored by assuming a perfect score and then deducting points from there; well, if you completely miss the target you can't deduct points because you don't know it missed at the end.

When I got my LTC I had to rent a weapon. I rented a glock 19 which was the weapon I learned with and the weapon my mom was requalifying with right beside me. My dad was beside her with his glock .357 sig. Our instructor required us to each have our own individual weapons and at the time the only other handgun we owned was a .22. It was about 3 months after that when I purchased my P238.

My wife also rented a Glock 19 to do her range qualification, the reason being that her only gun at the time was a 5 shot S&W 642 .....not the ideal gun to qualify with. The very next day, she bought herself a Glock 19.

As to the topic of this thread, and being prepared in advance to demonstrate proficiency during the qualifying, my wife had first received some instruction from my son and me previously, but was still not confident about it. It was the familiar trap of a spouse being taught by the other spouse, and there being some performance anxiety involved. So we enrolled her in a basic handgun class, where she was taught by a neutral party, and she enjoyed it tremendously and was fully ready to take the CHL class. But here's the deal....... My wife is a very responsible person, and she knew without having to be told by anyone that it would not be a responsible thing for her to do, to get a license to carry a deadly weapon with which she had almost no familiarity, confidence, or competence. Confidence alone does not equal competence, which is why we have an aphorism that "fools rush in where angels fear to tread". When someone conflates confidence with competence in a range qualification, we get the "special" students who endanger everyone around them.

Charles reinforced my point about falsifying scores. And his point about instructor legal liability is exactly why I limited my previous comment about liability to the "moral liability" (and not legal liability) of churning out students who are not properly educated and who are not safety-qualified on the range. I realize that "moral liability" is not a legal standard, but a society free of dysfunction requires it as a standard of human interaction. A moral people don't need to be forced to take a basic pistol class before taking the LTC class......and here, I'm talking about the sort of general terms of morality that even the morally challenged can agree are acceptable general standards of adult behavior. Don't lie, cheat or steal — stuff like that is sort of foundational to any society. Even in those societies where the standards are ignored in the breech, they at least pay lip service to it. That kind of morality is not necessarily restricted to people of religious conviction. Most atheists would agree with most religious folk that one should be truthful, not cheat, and not take what isn't yours. All three of those standards are violated when an instructor breaks the law by passing a student who still fails the class even after the chances for do-overs that are consistent with the law. The instructor is a liar; both the instructor and student have cheated the system; and the student has taken what he has not earned (the license).

Putting additional barriers between a citizen and the free exercise of his/her rights by passing additional laws are not the solution. Busting dishonest instructors is the solution. If it's a felony charge.....well, that's on them. They knew the law — better than most — before they broke it. They are in the same category of bad characters as crooked cops and corrupt politicians.

[TexasTornado]

I would have no problem requiring a weapons safety course as part of the application process as long as the course were offered for free at every police station across the state and online. If it free and easily accessible I do not see it as an infringement on any rights. Further more, I believe this should be available on a federal level for anyone that wants it. Unfortunatly, liberals want to focus on gun control instead of common sense programs that could actually save lives without infringing on law abiding citizens.

[bblhd672]

I would have no problem requiring a weapons safety course as part of the application process as long as the course were offered for free at every police station across the state and online. If it free and easily accessible I do not see it as an infringement on any rights. Further more, I believe this should be available on a federal level for anyone that wants it. Unfortunatly, liberals want to focus on gun control instead of common sense programs that could actually save lives without infringing on law abiding citizens.

Everything "free" supplied by government is funded by taxpayers. I'm already helping fund free food, shelter, cell phones and more for people, many of whom are perfectly content to sit on their behinds and do nothing (except vote "D") as long as the gravy train continues unabated.

[Abraham]

TexasTornado,

Whenever, I see an idea this or that 'should' be free, I think of Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton.

If however, the time, effort, expense and facilities for those teaching gun safety courses volunteer their time, equipment, etc., well maybe such an idea would work, but I have doubts as to the numbers of qualified folks who would do such a thing...of course, I'm could be wrong.

Or, perhaps I don't fully understand your idea.

Perhaps, I'm biased when I see the wording of: "Should be Free", because ain't nuttin free.

[vjallen75]

[I rented a glock 19 which was the weapon I learned with and the weapon my mom was requalifying with right beside me.

My wife also rented a Glock 19 to do her range qualification, the reason being that her only gun at the time was a 5 shot S&W 642 .....not the ideal gun to qualify with. The very next day, she bought herself a Glock 19.

I rented a Glock 19 as well for my class. But I ended up getting a FNS-9 to carry

[RossA]

May I ask, Tornado, would you require a free government class on how to speak "safely" or publish comments "safely" before you would allow people to exercise those rights?
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to point out that we are talking about the most basic of human rights, and one guaranteed by the Constitution. Once you start requiring government classes, approval, training, licensing, etc. of one Constitutional right, you can start requiring it of all such rights.

[Liberty]

There is some criticism about people not being able to load their mags. I understand that people who load the mags backwards, are showing a lack of sophistication and familiarity. But some of the most vulnerable, might have problems loading due to age and arthritis. There is no reason that I can think of that they shouldn't be able to get some help during their qualifications.

[TexasTornado]

TexasTornado,

Whenever, I see an idea this or that 'should' be free, I think of Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton.

If however, the time, effort, expense and facilities for those teaching gun safety courses volunteer their time, equipment, etc., well maybe such an idea would work, but I have doubts as to the numbers of qualified folks who would do such a thing...of course, I'm could be wrong.

Or, perhaps I don't fully understand your idea.

Perhaps, I'm biased when I see the wording of: "Should be Free", because ain't nuttin free.

Well the online training is actually very inexpensive to create and maintain especially as the government already has websites and hosting capacity.

As far as the training at police departments this is just another form of community out reach. Many departments already offer some form of firearm safety for kids.

There is always a cost associated with any program be it of the safety or gun grabbing variety. I'm merely suggesting that we adjust funds to programs that provide solutions that do not involve reducing firearms in America.

Also I am in no way suggesting these courses should be made mandatory before PURCHASING a firearm. That is a right of the people regardless of their prior experience. To hold a hunting license however there is a requirement for a safety course (at least under a certain age) so I don't think there is any issue making it required for an LTC. In fact Arizona has such a requirement in their statute requiring among other options a basic NRA course or prior military service.

[mojo84]

Threads like this appear to be an attempt paint the LTC qualification process in a negative light. Not sure they are very productive considering the undeniable track record over the past 20 years. Apparently, it's not as inadequate as these threads portray.

Nothing is perfect.

[RossA]

Mojo, while I am a LTC instructor, as a Constitutionalist I see the right of self defense as being enshrined as a right which does not require the government's permission. Hopefully we will one day have Constitutional carry in Texas. That will take away some of my income, but my income is not as important to me as my freedom is.
Remember, a license is nothing more than the government taking away a right, then selling it back to you under the government's conditions.

[Soccerdad1995]

I would like to see privately funded, free gun safety courses offered by more ranges. These could be funded in part by organizations like the NRA. We are talking about a course that is specifically targeted toward new customers, so it actually makes business sense for both organizations. But I would not support making this a legal requirement for an LTC after reading and considering the above comments in this thread.

Getting back to the original topic, I had a very surreal experience when I took my CHL class. During class, I noticed a guy who seemed to be very competent and familiar with guns, who I assumed would be a good shot. I also noticed a girl in her early 20's who seemed very nervous and inexperienced. We get to the range and sure enough the guy is on my left and the girl is on my right. You can probably see where this is going. No safety issues, but the girl shot a near perfect score (much better than I did), and the guy put more holes in other people's targets than he put in his own. He somehow managed to miss paper completely on most of the 3 yard shots even.

[RossA]

It would be a good thing for ranges and gun shops to offer a free one hour orientation class to anyone buying a gun. I'll bet a lot of instructors would volunteer a couple of hours each month to teach such classes. I would.
Wish I owned my own darn range.

[timdsmith72]

I had the same issue in my class. I don't recall having any guns pointed at me, but there was one guy that had no idea how to load his gun...that passed. Same guy would fire off an entire magazine every time the instructor gave orders for ONE round. He did this every freaking time!! Are people that dumb, or do they just have zero listening skills?

This would not have flown with the instructor where I took my class. He told us right up front, "In my class, this is not just a shooting proficiency test. It's also a test of your ability to follow instructions. If you can't follow my simple instructions, you will not pass."