Son had a weird encounter at Walmart

[Outnumbered]

Ok, I don't mean to sound argumentative or stupid buy any means but then what is the point of having legal notices denying entry if all that is required to make it an illegal action is to have an employee say "you can't carry in here" even IF company policy states it is acceptable with LTC verification?

That's the way law says it.

Not only does the law say it, but the penalties are worse. If you miss a sign and walk past it, it's a class C, but if you are told orally to leave and refuse it bumps up to a class A.

[Jusme]

Ok, I don't mean to sound argumentative or stupid buy any means but then what is the point of having legal notices denying entry if all that is required to make it an illegal action is to have an employee say "you can't carry in here" even IF company policy states it is acceptable with LTC verification?

That's the way law says it.

I don't have my license yet (stuck in purgatory currently), is this the kind of thing that you commonly run into? And are some places more apt to verbally deny someone openly carrying?

It varies, there have been a few instances, as posted in the forum, but from my understanding, since Wal-Mart got clarification from TABC, I haven't heard of any reports of them denying someone the right to OC. I have OC at several places, and have not had a single instance of anyone telling me I couldn't.

Effective notice can be given either by posting signs, orally, or by some other form of communication, such as a card handed to someone. I believe the logic behind the legislative ruling, is that it follows along the same lines as effective consent when comes to searches, or allowing someone on your property, it can be withdrawn at anytime. This only applies to private property owners, and not any property owned, or controlled by a government entity. The only illegal action a LTC carrier would be guilty of, would be if they refused to leave the property after receiving notice. If you enter somewhere that does not have signage, you are not guilty of a criminal offense until give effective notice.

[aCoffeejunky]

Ok, I don't mean to sound argumentative or stupid buy any means but then what is the point of having legal notices denying entry if all that is required to make it an illegal action is to have an employee say "you can't carry in here" even IF company policy states it is acceptable with LTC verification?

That's the way law says it.

Not only does the law say it, but the penalties are worse. If you miss a sign and walk past it, it's a class C, but if you are told orally to leave and refuse it bumps up to a class A.

I wouldn't continue into a business after someone tells me I can't carry, I'd most likely leave and not shop there again LOL But I think it's frustrating that an employee can verbally say no even if company policy is different. I really didn't know this could/can happen, I always thought to look for the notices and that was it.

[Jusme]

Ok, I don't mean to sound argumentative or stupid buy any means but then what is the point of having legal notices denying entry if all that is required to make it an illegal action is to have an employee say "you can't carry in here" even IF company policy states it is acceptable with LTC verification?

That's the way law says it.

Not only does the law say it, but the penalties are worse. If you miss a sign and walk past it, it's a class C, but if you are told orally to leave and refuse it bumps up to a class A.

I wouldn't continue into a business after someone tells me I can't carry, I'd most likely leave and not shop there again LOL But I think it's frustrating that an employee can verbally say no even if company policy is different. I really didn't know this could/can happen, I always thought to look for the notices and that was it.

I agree, and I don't shop anywhere that posts 30.06 signs, I will cover up if required, but if there was no signage, and I was told to leave, not only would I not do business there, I would send letters to the owners/manager etc. telling them exactly why they lost my consumer dollars, and list the establishment(s) that will now be the recipient of them.

[JALLEN]

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I read, but if you walk into a store, a greeter says "you can't carry a gun here", and you aren't carrying a gun, you just say thanks and keep on going about your business, no crime, no ride, no muss, no fuss.

The law only speaks to handguns, not rifles, knives, hand grenades, IEDs, water filled balloons or anything else.

[casp625]

I have only been to one Walmart, which has two security guards at each entrance! Is Walmart becoming the new criminal hotspot for certain areas?!

[Outnumbered]

I wouldn't continue into a business after someone tells me I can't carry, I'd most likely leave and not shop there again LOL But I think it's frustrating that an employee can verbally say no even if company policy is different. I really didn't know this could/can happen, I always thought to look for the notices and that was it.

That's one reason I prefer to conceal. The manager at my local chain store (Walmart, for example) won't see my gun and decide on the spot that they don't want guns. If they do see my gun and tell me OC is prohibited, they might also decide to say that all guns are prohibited. If that happens, then even though everyone else can carry concealed there, I wouldn't be able to.

[Jusme]

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I read, but if you walk into a store, a greeter says "you can't carry a gun here", and you aren't carrying a gun, you just say thanks and keep on going about your business, no crime, no ride, no muss, no fuss.

The law only speaks to handguns, not rifles, knives, hand grenades, IEDs, water filled balloons or anything else.

You are correct the thread kinda took a detour there. If walmart is hiring security guards who can't tell the difference between knives and guns, they may need to look at their screening process.JMHO

[Soccerdad1995]

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I read, but if you walk into a store, a greeter says "you can't carry a gun here", and you aren't carrying a gun, you just say thanks and keep on going about your business, no crime, no ride, no muss, no fuss.

The law only speaks to handguns, not rifles, knives, hand grenades, IEDs, water filled balloons or anything else.

Correct, in the OP's example his son could have just gone about his business since he didn't have a gun. He didn't even need to acknowledge the security guard's statement at all.

But the son has now received effective notice that all carry (CC and OC) is not allowed, and cannot carry there in the future, setting aside for the moment that the son is not old enough to have a LTC regardless of anything else.

[ELB]

Ok, I don't mean to sound argumentative or stupid buy any means but then what is the point of having legal notices denying entry if all that is required to make it an illegal action is to have an employee say "you can't carry in here" even IF company policy states it is acceptable with LTC verification?

That's the way law says it.

Not only does the law say it, but the penalties are worse. If you miss a sign and walk past it, it's a class C, but if you are told orally to leave and refuse it bumps up to a class A.

I wouldn't continue into a business after someone tells me I can't carry, I'd most likely leave and not shop there again LOL But I think it's frustrating that an employee can verbally say no even if company policy is different. I really didn't know this could/can happen, I always thought to look for the notices and that was it.

If you think about it, it would be little odd if a business owner could NOT tell you verbally to not carry, but had to use a sign to do so.

In the beginning (1995) of licensed carry in Texas, there was no official sign, owners/proprietors etc could either tell you face to face or stick up any old gunbusters sign, including a little tiny one buried in among all the other advertisements. That put a CHL holder at considerable legal jeopardy if he didn't see the sign. I forget which year it was, but later on the Legislature established detailed requirements for a sign that was big enough, in two languages to be hard to miss.

With concealed carry nobody knows, so they don't even have to think about it, and they're not likely to give you verbal notice. Open carry forces them to make a decision, and it gives some folks heebie-jeebies.

In the case of the Walmart security guard, I'm pretty sure he was not enforcing Walmart policy, just his own preconceptions about the way things ought to be, but an argument at that point would not have been helpful. Calling or writing the store manager might do some good.

[RevDLo]

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I read, but if you walk into a store, a greeter says "you can't carry a gun here", and you aren't carrying a gun, you just say thanks and keep on going about your business, no crime, no ride, no muss, no fuss.

The law only speaks to handguns, not rifles, knives, hand grenades, IEDs, water filled balloons or anything else.

Correct, in the OP's example his son could have just gone about his business since he didn't have a gun. He didn't even need to acknowledge the security guard's statement at all.

But the son has now received effective notice that all carry (CC and OC) is not allowed, and cannot carry there in the future, setting aside for the moment that the son is not old enough to have a LTC regardless of anything else.

Yes my son was only carrying a knife, but my concern was the guard/greeter just jumping and saying he couldn't. When if he had been of age and a LTC holder he would have had every right to be by law and store policy. But this guy thru his own beliefs out there, when policy is to ask for verification, not immediately tell someone that they cant! TBC...I was not there with my son when this happened. He only told me about it.

[rotor]

Let us know in 4 years from now when your son has an LTC how this all goes down. I don't believe that your son has been given effective notice from someone in authority to ban him from carrying forever in that store.

[RevDLo]

Let us know in 4 years from now when your son has an LTC how this all goes down. I don't believe that your son has been given effective notice from someone in authority to ban him from carrying forever in that store.

I imagine....if we remember to...we will both walk in OC! I'm sure the revolving employee door will take of this for us

[Abraham]

One poorly informed security pinhead at a W.M.

No problem.

Every W.M. I've been in had no security guards acting like petty tyrants.

Wait, no security guards at all.

C'mon, a W.M. security guard isn't likely to be ah, top notch...

Just grin and go on about your business.

If said S.G. then starts to act like a petty tyrant, there are remedies, like pleasantly suggesting you both seek out the store manager...

[ScottDLS]

Ok, I don't mean to sound argumentative or stupid buy any means but then what is the point of having legal notices denying entry if all that is required to make it an illegal action is to have an employee say "you can't carry in here" even IF company policy states it is acceptable with LTC verification?

That's the way law says it.

Not only does the law say it, but the penalties are worse. If you miss a sign and walk past it, it's a class C, but if you are told orally to leave and refuse it bumps up to a class A.

I wouldn't continue into a business after someone tells me I can't carry, I'd most likely leave and not shop there again LOL But I think it's frustrating that an employee can verbally say no even if company policy is different. I really didn't know this could/can happen, I always thought to look for the notices and that was it.

If you think about it, it would be little odd if a business owner could NOT tell you verbally to not carry, but had to use a sign to do so.

In the beginning (1995) of licensed carry in Texas, there was no official sign, owners/proprietors etc could either tell you face to face or stick up any old gunbusters sign, including a little tiny one buried in among all the other advertisements. That put a CHL holder at considerable legal jeopardy if he didn't see the sign. I forget which year it was, but later on the Legislature established detailed requirements for a sign that was big enough, in two languages to be hard to miss.

With concealed carry nobody knows, so they don't even have to think about it, and they're not likely to give you verbal notice. Open carry forces them to make a decision, and it gives some folks heebie-jeebies.

In the case of the Walmart security guard, I'm pretty sure he was not enforcing Walmart policy, just his own preconceptions about the way things ought to be, but an argument at that point would not have been helpful. Calling or writing the store manager might do some good.

This was never really put to the test, despite the logic that AG Morales used in his 1995 opinion. The notice requirements in 30.05 for a sign are "(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;"

I don't think that any old gunbusters sign or a tiny sign saying "no weapons" is either reasonably likely to come to the attention of INTRUDERS nor does it indicate that entry is forbidden, especially in a business where your entry is INVITED, by being open.