I have a question

[Soccerdad1995]

It doesn't matter what the activity is...working on the engine...sitting in your vehicle...vacuuming the inside of your car...sleeping...going fishing...getting out of the car on the demand of the officer...parting the Red Sea...

If at any time that gun is visible it is not concealed and therefore you are not in compliance with either 46.02 or 46.035 (if, in the case of .035, you are carrying under concealed carry rules and not open carry rules).

tex

First off, IANAL, and I'll gladly defer to you if you are.

That said, the key distinction here, IMHO, is for a situation where the gun is only unconcealed as a direct consequence of you responding to an order from a LEO (exit the vehicle). But for your response to that order, the gun would be completely and totally concealed.

I am having a hard time understanding how some of the situations above differ from having a revolver in your center console, or glove box, along with your registration and proof of insurance. The LEO asks for these documents. You advise the officer of your weapons location, he tells you to go ahead and get the docs, sees your weapon, and arrests you for having an unconcealed firearm? That just does not seem correct at all, IMHO. Yet this is another example where the ONLY reason that the firearm was unconcealed is your response to the LEO's orders.

In my case, I sometimes keep a J frame in a pocket holster in the door storage area of my vehicle. It is completely hidden, but may be seen if I was exiting the vehicle and someone was specifically looking at that area. Are you saying that is a problem?

[thetexan]

It doesn't matter what the activity is...working on the engine...sitting in your vehicle...vacuuming the inside of your car...sleeping...going fishing...getting out of the car on the demand of the officer...parting the Red Sea...

If at any time that gun is visible it is not concealed and therefore you are not in compliance with either 46.02 or 46.035 (if, in the case of .035, you are carrying under concealed carry rules and not open carry rules).

tex

First off, IANAL, and I'll gladly defer to you if you are.

That said, the key distinction here, IMHO, is for a situation where the gun is only unconcealed as a direct consequence of you responding to an order from a LEO (exit the vehicle). But for your response to that order, the gun would be completely and totally concealed.

I am having a hard time understanding how some of the situations above differ from having a revolver in your center console, or glove box, along with your registration and proof of insurance. The LEO asks for these documents. You advise the officer of your weapons location, he tells you to go ahead and get the docs, sees your weapon, and arrests you for having an unconcealed firearm? That just does not seem correct at all, IMHO. Yet this is another example where the ONLY reason that the firearm was unconcealed is your response to the LEO's orders.

In my case, I sometimes keep a J frame in a pocket holster in the door storage area of my vehicle. It is completely hidden, but may be seen if I was exiting the vehicle and someone was specifically looking at that area. Are you saying that is a problem?

I am not so do not defer to me.

My only point is that unconcealed is unconcealed is unconcealed according to statute. Whether that state of unconcealment which would be as a result of a command by a law enforcement officer to do something is prosecutable as a violation or, if prosecuted, those circumstances would provide a good defense to that prosecution is the question. Certainly, if a LEO tells you to open the center console or does it himself, thus revealing the gun, you would not be held responsible for that.....or would you? I would think not. But the finding of facts at trial would probably be that 1. the gun became displayed contrary to 46.02 or 46.035 and 2. Whatever the facts are concerning the cause of that display and 3. your culpability in causing that display. Personally, if you keep the gun hidden in such a way that it is concealed (if using .02 or concealed carry under .035) under all conditions such as opening a door, etc. I wouldn't think there would ever be an issue.

tex

[Bryanmc]

I think it comes down to the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.

[jerry_r60]

I think it comes down to the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.

For some of this discussion, maybe. For some of the descriptions and scenarios I think it's plain. If an officer can walk up and look around in your car and see your gun without moving anything, that would be unconcealed. I don't think that one is in question. So for example the under steering column holster or the gun in the door pocket. If an officer can walk up look around in the car and spot it, it's unconcealed.

If it changes things if it only becomes unconcealed if you are asked to get out of the car, I don't know. I know I choose not to use put it anywhere that would be uncovered by my opening the door and exiting the vehicle.

I also would try to have my licenses and insurance in my hand already when the officer walked up to the door if I had the time to do so. So I'm not daggering around and opening anything to get them. I'm not suggesting opening a compartment to get them matters, I "think" that would not constitute unconcealed but I really don't know and would avoid having to do that by having my gun and license/insurance in the same place.

[WildBill]

I think it comes down to the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.

I am not sure what you mean by this.

[WildBill]

I think it comes down to the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.

For some of this discussion, maybe. For some of the descriptions and scenarios I think it's plain. If an officer can walk up and look around in your car and see your gun without moving anything, that would be unconcealed. I don't think that one is in question. So for example the under steering column holster or the gun in the door pocket. If an officer can walk up look around in the car and spot it, it's unconcealed.

If it changes things if it only becomes unconcealed if you are asked to get out of the car, I don't know. I know I choose not to use put it anywhere that would be uncovered by my opening the door and exiting the vehicle.

I also would try to have my licenses and insurance in my hand already when the officer walked up to the door if I had the time to do so. So I'm not daggering around and opening anything to get them. I'm not suggesting opening a compartment to get them matters, I "think" that would not constitute unconcealed but I really don't know and would avoid having to do that by having my gun and license/insurance in the same place.

Early in my carrying days I had an instance where I had my handgun and insurance in my glove box and got pulled over.
When she asked for my proof of insurance I informed the officer that I had my handgun in the glove box before I opened it.
She asked me to put in handgun on the passenger seat and not to touch it. Of course I complied. She gave me the ticket and thanked me for being careful.
I have since changed the location of my handgun.

[TangoX-ray]

I think it comes down to the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.

Always concealed (complete concealment) vs. situationally concealed (by you, a temporary cover, or any other means)

[Bryanmc]

I think it comes down to the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.

I am not sure what you mean by this.

In my mind (and Lord knows I've been wrong before) concealed in this instance means a reasonable good faith effort has been made to conceal it as opposed to laying it on the dash or on the passenger seat. If you're in a wreck and the pistol you had concealed under the passenger seat slides out onto the floor board, I don't think anyone is going to write you for an unconcealed weapon, although by the letter of the law, at that moment it is.

[WildBill]

I think it comes down to the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.

I am not sure what you mean by this.

In my mind (and Lord knows I've been wrong before) concealed in this instance means a reasonable good faith effort has been made to conceal it as opposed to laying it on the dash or on the passenger seat. If you're in a wreck and the pistol you had concealed under the passenger seat slides out onto the floor board, I don't think anyone is going to write you for an unconcealed weapon, although by the letter of the law, at that moment it is.

In that instant I would agree.

[rdcrags]

When not in my pocket or in a drawer in the house (no children anymore), my J-frame is in the car door pocket covered loosely with a rag. Concealed and easy to grab. Someone pointed out, though, that the weapon would not be available if the BG opened the door before I could respond. But the pluses outweigh the minuses in my view. When forced to leave it in the car due to signage, I risk it being stolen. There are some stores and restaurants I do not boycott, at least not yet. Met a guy for a business lunch last week and found new double signs. I just grumbled and left the weapon in the car. My associate does not know I carry. Basically, no one does. Felt vulnerable in that gun free zone.