C-dub wrote:I would like to play a little devil's advocate for a moment.
What about openly carrying a handgun in a church is so different from anywhere else? Is it because we don't want to detract from worship services? What about restaurants and disturbing others' peaceful meal? Should people not OC somewhere because they're afraid of disturbing someone's day? Just wondering where this line gets drawn.
Because, in my opinion, knowingly being a distraction at a church worship service is not what my God wants me to do. And for me, his calling is a much higher priority for me than being a potential distraction by OC. To knowingly do something that may cause another from being in tune with their God through worship is sin. IMHO.
To OC at a restaurant doesn't cause anyone to be distracted from their relationship with God. I don't like to be around smokers while I eat, but I put up with it. I don't like a lot of things I see in public, but I put up with it. I just think church is a holy place and any distraction from worship, prayer, praise should be removed. In a holy place to tell someone or expect someone too just get over it is wrong.
C-dub wrote:I would like to play a little devil's advocate for a moment.
What about openly carrying a handgun in a church is so different from anywhere else? Is it because we don't want to detract from worship services? What about restaurants and disturbing others' peaceful meal? Should people not OC somewhere because they're afraid of disturbing someone's day? Just wondering where this line gets drawn.
I am only responsible for myself and mine. For me and my house, the line is 1Corinthians 8. I don't feel that it is edifying to discuss theology here.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
Safety Ministry Director, First Baptist Church Elgin
NRA, NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Instructor, Rangemaster Certified, GOA, TSRA, NAR L1
Our church will NOT be posting any 30.07 or 30.06 signs. I am the pastor, and I am carrying (concealed) every Sunday. That said, I will probably keep my own firearm concealed while at church, just because I want people focused on the message, and not on my new grips.
That said, others are free to open carry, and I may open carry other places when practical.
Havensdad wrote:Our church will NOT be posting any 30.07 or 30.06 signs. I am the pastor, and I am carrying (concealed) every Sunday. That said, I will probably keep my own firearm concealed while at church, just because I want people focused on the message, and not on my new grips.
That said, others are free to open carry, and I may open carry other places when practical.
I'll be carrying in a OWB thumb break holster. Out side of the sanctuary, I'll take my suit coat off at will. Inside, I'll keep it on. Y'all carry as you see best.
God bless Texas.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
Safety Ministry Director, First Baptist Church Elgin
NRA, NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Instructor, Rangemaster Certified, GOA, TSRA, NAR L1
I don't think openly carrying at a church is a distraction. If they aren't posted, it's that persons right to do so. Just as it's anyone in that churches right to the freedom of religion. If the media didn't try to make everyone so paranoid of guns it wouldn't be an issue.
stingeragent wrote:I don't think openly carrying at a church is a distraction. If they aren't posted, it's that persons right to do so. Just as it's anyone in that churches right to the freedom of religion. If the media didn't try to make everyone so paranoid of guns it wouldn't be an issue.
Just because it is our right, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You obviously disagree. If it turns out to be a distraction, would you revert to CC? Or stick with the it's my right regardless mantra?
Why would you OC in church ? I have attended church as long as I can remember and never seen a gun there . I carry concealed and have no problems . Why the impulse to sport a weapon in the house of GOD . You will have to explain that to me as to the advantage of such behavior ? I see no point to it but only problems . WHY CAN"T YOU CARRY CONCEALED ? Give realistic reasons .
( Please ! Do not say ...............JUST BECAUSE I CAN !)
It's ok to obey the law and CC at church but it's not ok to obey the law and OC at church.
This is your problem, not ours.
So, if a person's OC is distracting another person's ability to worship God in His house, that is their problem? Really? A person's right to OC justifies disruption of the work of the Church? If the members are good with it, OK, but if they are not..... Just because it is legal doesn't always mean it is right, wise or considerate.
I know most of the people I sit around at church and for the most part we are like minded people. It's not going to be a shock to anyone when people OC.
It has been my experience that we are very like minded when it comes to the tenets of our faith and many are like minded when it comes to firearms. But some are not. I don't think it is right to be a distraction for even the few.
We live in a me first society and anything is a distraction if you let it. My 84 year old mother in law only likes hymns and can't stand top 40 praise songs.
Praise is a distraction for her and hymns maybe a distraction for anyone younger than 35.
So what's the right answer? I did know.
Disclaimer: Anything I state can not be applied to 100% of all situations. Sometimes it's ok to speak in general terms.
Why would you OC in church ? I have attended church as long as I can remember and never seen a gun there . I carry concealed and have no problems . Why the impulse to sport a weapon in the house of GOD . You will have to explain that to me as to the advantage of such behavior ? I see no point to it but only problems . WHY CAN"T YOU CARRY CONCEALED ? Give realistic reasons .
( Please ! Do not say ...............JUST BECAUSE I CAN !)
It's ok to obey the law and CC at church but it's not ok to obey the law and OC at church.
This is your problem, not ours.
So, if a person's OC is distracting another person's ability to worship God in His house, that is their problem? Really? A person's right to OC justifies disruption of the work of the Church? If the members are good with it, OK, but if they are not..... Just because it is legal doesn't always mean it is right, wise or considerate.
I know most of the people I sit around at church and for the most part we are like minded people. It's not going to be a shock to anyone when people OC.
It has been my experience that we are very like minded when it comes to the tenets of our faith and many are like minded when it comes to firearms. But some are not. I don't think it is right to be a distraction for even the few.
We live in a me first society and anything is a distraction if you let it. My 84 year old mother in law only likes hymns and can't stand top 40 praise songs.
Praise is a distraction for her and hymns maybe a distraction for anyone younger than 35.
So what's the right answer? I did know.
Your first statement here is dead on. We live in a very "me first society" that selfishly believes it's ok to do whatever one wants and claim it's a right regardless how it may affect another.
Yep, it's one's right to make a fashion statement with their gun in church if they haven't been given notice not to. The attitude of it's my right and to heck with others is disturbing.
Do you guys exercise your right to free speech while the pastor is praying or giving his sermon also?
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
Why would you OC in church ? I have attended church as long as I can remember and never seen a gun there . I carry concealed and have no problems . Why the impulse to sport a weapon in the house of GOD . You will have to explain that to me as to the advantage of such behavior ? I see no point to it but only problems . WHY CAN"T YOU CARRY CONCEALED ? Give realistic reasons .
( Please ! Do not say ...............JUST BECAUSE I CAN !)
It's ok to obey the law and CC at church but it's not ok to obey the law and OC at church.
This is your problem, not ours.
So, if a person's OC is distracting another person's ability to worship God in His house, that is their problem? Really? A person's right to OC justifies disruption of the work of the Church? If the members are good with it, OK, but if they are not..... Just because it is legal doesn't always mean it is right, wise or considerate.
I know most of the people I sit around at church and for the most part we are like minded people. It's not going to be a shock to anyone when people OC.
It has been my experience that we are very like minded when it comes to the tenets of our faith and many are like minded when it comes to firearms. But some are not. I don't think it is right to be a distraction for even the few.
We live in a me first society and anything is a distraction if you let it. My 84 year old mother in law only likes hymns and can't stand top 40 praise songs.
Praise is a distraction for her and hymns maybe a distraction for anyone younger than 35.
So what's the right answer? I did know.
Your first statement here is dead on. We live in a very "me first society" that selfishly believes it's ok to do whatever one wants and claim it's a right regardless how it may affect another.
Yep, it's one's right to make a fashion statement with their gun in church if they haven't been given notice not to. The attitude of it's my right and to heck with others is disturbing.
Do you guys exercise your right to free speech while the pastor is praying or giving his sermon also?
2015 will go down as the that everyone was offended.
Ok, I'll continue to CC at church and then after church a group of us go out to eat lunch where OC is legal. Do I only concern myself with their feelings at church and not so much after church or should I hide my OCing while I'm interacting with any church members in or out of church?
Is it more christain to CC at church and to OC out of church?
Disclaimer: Anything I state can not be applied to 100% of all situations. Sometimes it's ok to speak in general terms.
Why would you OC in church ? I have attended church as long as I can remember and never seen a gun there . I carry concealed and have no problems . Why the impulse to sport a weapon in the house of GOD . You will have to explain that to me as to the advantage of such behavior ? I see no point to it but only problems . WHY CAN"T YOU CARRY CONCEALED ? Give realistic reasons .
( Please ! Do not say ...............JUST BECAUSE I CAN !)
It's ok to obey the law and CC at church but it's not ok to obey the law and OC at church.
This is your problem, not ours.
So, if a person's OC is distracting another person's ability to worship God in His house, that is their problem? Really? A person's right to OC justifies disruption of the work of the Church? If the members are good with it, OK, but if they are not..... Just because it is legal doesn't always mean it is right, wise or considerate.
I know most of the people I sit around at church and for the most part we are like minded people. It's not going to be a shock to anyone when people OC.
It has been my experience that we are very like minded when it comes to the tenets of our faith and many are like minded when it comes to firearms. But some are not. I don't think it is right to be a distraction for even the few.
We live in a me first society and anything is a distraction if you let it. My 84 year old mother in law only likes hymns and can't stand top 40 praise songs.
Praise is a distraction for her and hymns maybe a distraction for anyone younger than 35.
So what's the right answer? I did know.
Your first statement here is dead on. We live in a very "me first society" that selfishly believes it's ok to do whatever one wants and claim it's a right regardless how it may affect another.
Yep, it's one's right to make a fashion statement with their gun in church if they haven't been given notice not to. The attitude of it's my right and to heck with others is disturbing.
Do you guys exercise your right to free speech while the pastor is praying or giving his sermon also?
2015 will go down as the that everyone was offended.
Ok, I'll continue to CC at church and then after church a group of us go out to eat lunch where OC is legal. Do I only concern myself with their feelings at church and not so much after church or should I hide my OCing while I'm interacting with any church members in or out of church?
Is it more christain to CC at church and to OC out of church?
I can't help you if you can't see the difference. Whether your actions make you a better Christian or not is between you and God. It's not my place to say. I can say, I respect God enough to not want to take the chance of distracting someone from worshipping or focusing on Him.
Maybe 2015 Will go down as the year everyone exercised their rights without regard to how anyone else was effected.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
Why would you OC in church ? I have attended church as long as I can remember and never seen a gun there . I carry concealed and have no problems . Why the impulse to sport a weapon in the house of GOD . You will have to explain that to me as to the advantage of such behavior ? I see no point to it but only problems . WHY CAN"T YOU CARRY CONCEALED ? Give realistic reasons .
( Please ! Do not say ...............JUST BECAUSE I CAN !)
It's ok to obey the law and CC at church but it's not ok to obey the law and OC at church.
This is your problem, not ours.
So, if a person's OC is distracting another person's ability to worship God in His house, that is their problem? Really? A person's right to OC justifies disruption of the work of the Church? If the members are good with it, OK, but if they are not..... Just because it is legal doesn't always mean it is right, wise or considerate.
I know most of the people I sit around at church and for the most part we are like minded people. It's not going to be a shock to anyone when people OC.
It has been my experience that we are very like minded when it comes to the tenets of our faith and many are like minded when it comes to firearms. But some are not. I don't think it is right to be a distraction for even the few.
We live in a me first society and anything is a distraction if you let it. My 84 year old mother in law only likes hymns and can't stand top 40 praise songs.
Praise is a distraction for her and hymns maybe a distraction for anyone younger than 35.
So what's the right answer? I did know.
Your first statement here is dead on. We live in a very "me first society" that selfishly believes it's ok to do whatever one wants and claim it's a right regardless how it may affect another.
Yep, it's one's right to make a fashion statement with their gun in church if they haven't been given notice not to. The attitude of it's my right and to heck with others is disturbing.
Do you guys exercise your right to free speech while the pastor is praying or giving his sermon also?
2015 will go down as the that everyone was offended.
Ok, I'll continue to CC at church and then after church a group of us go out to eat lunch where OC is legal. Do I only concern myself with their feelings at church and not so much after church or should I hide my OCing while I'm interacting with any church members in or out of church?
Is it more christain to CC at church and to OC out of church?
I can't help you if you can't see the difference. Whether your actions make you a better Christian or not is between you and God. It's not my place to say. I can say, I respect God enough to not want to take the chance of distracting someone from worshipping or focusing on Him.
Maybe 2015 Will go down as the year everyone exercised their rights without regard to how anyone else was effected.
Which brings me back to my point from a few weeks ago, none of these OC fears are happening where OC has been legal for a long time. People are afraid of the unknown.
I'll ask this again, why is it ok for 1st baptist of Arlington to allow/embrace OC? If OC is a distraction at other churches why not there?
OC has nothing to do with right or wrong it has to every thing to do with comfort. We fear the unknown.
I'm NOT an OCT supporter at all, but I think the overall hatred for OCT on this forum clouds your judgement on OCing in general.
Disclaimer: Anything I state can not be applied to 100% of all situations. Sometimes it's ok to speak in general terms.
I'm sure Dennis and his staff put a lot of thought into their decision and decided what is best for 1st Baptist Arlington. That doesn't mean it is the best or correct decision for all churches. If they take steps to prepare people for open carry, it shouldn't be an issue.
I still maintain if the open carry is a distraction, whether the pastor supports it or not, it's a problem.
Last edited by mojo84 on Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
The Annoyed Man wrote:Well I got the official word tonight. 30.07 signs are going up this week. When my ministry lead person expressed to our head pastor that he was personally uncomfortable with CC at our church, our pastor told him we're not going to ban that because we don't want to be the kind of church that then has to put up metal detectors to make sure that congregants who used to carry obey the signs. Our senior pastor has privately told a friend of mine who carries that he is personally OK with CHL and actually feels safer knowing that there are people in the congregation who carry.
Anyway, I am relieved. If they are going to ban OC, I'd rather that it had been dealt with more subtly by empowering the churches "gatekeepers" (greeters, ushers, etc.) to give effective notice verbally, rather than posting the signs; but I can live with the signs.
I've given this a lot of thought and have discussed these issues extensively in a professional capacity with very thoughtful church leadership teams.
I think the best position is not to post any signs and to adopt a policy that requires that firearms be carried concealed only, with greeters / ushers trained and prepared with cards that explain the policy if someone does show up practicing OC.
Even though OC will soon be legal, to me it would be an indication of poor judgment for someone to show up with an openly carried firearm in church, particularly in view of the fact that the safety of the congregation is better served by keeping potential bad guys guessing about who may be carrying and who is not.
I have told our folks we will be using the "wait and see" approach.
I also agree it would be bad taste to OC in church. One thing folks seem to forget this life should not be just about me, but about others. Why would I want to be a stumbling block to another member over something that doesn't really matter. My pistol hid by my suit coat hurts no one and doesn't hurt me.
I suspect that is what my church would have done, if not for the stink raised by the ministry lead person I've mentioned above.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
The Annoyed Man wrote:Well I got the official word tonight. 30.07 signs are going up this week. When my ministry lead person expressed to our head pastor that he was personally uncomfortable with CC at our church, our pastor told him we're not going to ban that because we don't want to be the kind of church that then has to put up metal detectors to make sure that congregants who used to carry obey the signs. Our senior pastor has privately told a friend of mine who carries that he is personally OK with CHL and actually feels safer knowing that there are people in the congregation who carry.
Anyway, I am relieved. If they are going to ban OC, I'd rather that it had been dealt with more subtly by empowering the churches "gatekeepers" (greeters, ushers, etc.) to give effective notice verbally, rather than posting the signs; but I can live with the signs.
I've given this a lot of thought and have discussed these issues extensively in a professional capacity with very thoughtful church leadership teams.
I think the best position is not to post any signs and to adopt a policy that requires that firearms be carried concealed only, with greeters / ushers trained and prepared with cards that explain the policy if someone does show up practicing OC.
Even though OC will soon be legal, to me it would be an indication of poor judgment for someone to show up with an openly carried firearm in church, particularly in view of the fact that the safety of the congregation is better served by keeping potential bad guys guessing about who may be carrying and who is not.
I have told our folks we will be using the "wait and see" approach.
I also agree it would be bad taste to OC in church. One thing folks seem to forget this life should not be just about me, but about others. Why would I want to be a stumbling block to another member over something that doesn't really matter. My pistol hid by my suit coat hurts no one and doesn't hurt me.
I suspect that is what my church would have done, if not for the stink raised by the ministry lead person I've mentioned above.
You might consider giving it a few months and then collecting the experiences of churches that didn't post the signs. If things turn out as I expect, you would likely have a good case for declaring the signs unnecessary and getting them removed.
Excaliber
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
Richbirdhunter wrote:Which brings me back to my point from a few weeks ago, none of these OC fears are happening where OC has been legal for a long time. People are afraid of the unknown.
This claim is often made by open-carry supporters and it's one of the most unfounded, unsupported statements one could imagine. Unless you have been present at every location where someone carry a handgun openly, you have no personal knowledge to support your statement. The most anyone can honestly say is that they have not witnessed a problem.
If open-carry was the Nirvana that its supporters claim, then there wouldn't be an organization (OpenCarry.org) created to support it. If you can put up with the crap, just read some of the horror stories in the various state sections. It's clear that there are problems with open-carry.
