Mini Rant over HB910 and Horizontal Shoulder Holsters

[stroo]

From Kathy's article: " If you cannot pick a firearm up without pointing it in an unsafe direction (or if it is already pointed in an unsafe direction), you should not put your hand on it." Please explain to me how you are going to draw your firearm from your shoulder holster without pointing it at the person behind you.

Apart from this, I am in full agreement with Charles. You are responsible for where the muzzle of your gun is pointing not the person behind you or anyone around you. You have the gun; the bystander doesn't. And that is true whether you are OCing or concealed carrying! It is just more obvious when you OC.

[Overthehill]

Due to various past injuries it is occasionally much more comfortable for me to carry in a shoulder holster, which happens to be an Andrews Monarch for my 1911, rather than my OWB mode of carry. While there is no doubt that with the covered trigger, strap between hammer and firing pin along with the two safeties common to a 1911 that the weapon's safety within the holster is almost 100% I would still never consider carrying openly into a retail establishment or any crowded location in which I would or could cause others concern from staring down the muzzle. While the legality of such a manner of carry will soon exist it is simply, as our allies across the pond say, "bad form". They are in no more danger without my cover garment than they were with it but witnessing the muzzle pointed at their body causes a perception which will work against our further broadening of 2nd Amendment rights in the future and will give some police organizations impetus to work toward banning various forms of open carry.

[treadlightly]

I don't want to be swept whether I know it's happening or not.

I'll even go so far as to agree a sear failure, while in the holster, shouldn't cause most guns to discharge - assuming it was in a safe condition to begin with. A cocked and locked 1911 won't discharge even if the sear vaporizes, and a gun with a firing pin block shouldn't discharge if the hammer or striker falls, assuming the gun is in a non-firing state in the holster.

I'd just recommend against horizontal shoulder holsters because of what the muzzle sees.

Did I offend? Cut me some slack, I didn't even mention Glocks in horizontal shoulder holsters. Or the danger of Glocks in shoulder holsters while practicing palm-in-armpit duck calls - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuHMQ0QpH44

[Javier730]

harrycallahan, just out of curiosity, I would like to know what your answer to Charles question to android would be. "If you are in line at a restaurant and the person in front of you is wearing a horizontal shoulder holster with the muzzle point at you or a loved one, are you going to move or just stand there?

[android]

Charles, I will completely agree 100% that open carry in a shoulder holster, even with a "safe" gun and good holster appears dangerous and unsafe to the uninformed. I will even throw out there that as a *guideline* that those of us that carry guns should try to avoid scaring the uninformed sheep of the world. It is bad form and creates a negative attitude.
As a matter of courtesy and diplomacy, you are %100 correct. In fact, it is highly unlikely you will ever see me OCing because of this.

(As a side note, it would be interesting to see if people cared if the end of the holster was enclosed and you couldn't actually see the barrel)

My point in bringing up the discussion was to question whether this fear (like so many gun fears) has any basis in reality.

As to being behind somebody with a shoulder holster, it would depend. If it was Bubba and he looked like he was carry his home gun-smithed 1911* with the hair trigger and JustAboutToFail(tm) sear in an Uncle Mike foam rubber holster, I would certainly move. If it was a squared away looking guy with a Glock or some other modern handgun in a solid piece of leather or kydex, I really wouldn't care. Once again, if either of these guys was carrying concealed with a jacket, I wouldn't even know. I guess we'll see in January... I'll probably end up behind Bubba and not even notice his shoulder rig under his giant blubber covered arms. :)




*I'll readily admit I'm not cool enough to carry a cocked and locked 1911. I think they are awesome and admire the history, but I think that there are so many other options available now that carrying a SA 1911 with the hammer back is not really necessary. But more power to those of you that do. If so, I hope you have one that hasn't been tuned to the point of being unsafe.

[The Annoyed Man]

I responded to your comment that no one was "swept" with a muzzle if the trigger was covered by the holster. This simply is not the case. When the muzzle points at a person, that person has been swept and that violates one of the cardinal gun safety rules.
Chas.

Well can disagree on this and Kathy disagrees with you too.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/hols ... our-rules/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We can argue till the cows come home about how safe this type of carry is, but for the vast majority of the public perception is reality. If it makes people on this forum (who have many more years experience handling firearms and teaching firearm safety than Kathy does) uncomfortable how do you think it's going to make the general public feel? That is a rhetorical question because we all already know the answer. The perception of the public is going to be "that gun is pointed right at me" and the people they say that to are going to be the people who are going to feel that they have no other choice than to ban OC from their establishment.

We always talk about how OC isn't a big deal other places and most people don't even notice. I agree with that when we are talking about a subdued OWB holster. Most people's eyes aren't focused on people's hands and waistline thus the firearm goes unnoticed. But a shoulder holster not only draws a lot more attention because it falls in most people's line of sight, it also draws attention to the firearm. Add a barrel pointing at you and you're asking for the sheep to panic which will only result in more limitations on where and how we can carry.

I know there are some that are going to say that if they don't like it they can move. My response to that is you are going to be the one moving - out the door. Unfortunately you are not the only one who will pay the price for your actions.

Here is my rationale.....

1. All I can say is that I know my horizontal shoulder holster is perfectly safe, and it will not cause a gun to fire spontaneously any more than if the gun were just sitting on a table unmolested. This is why I don't have a problem carrying with it.
2. But, I also know that if that gun were sitting unattended on a table, loaded, I would not willingly walk past the muzzle end of it....... even though I know that the gun cannot fire itself. To ask someone else to knowingly walk past the muzzle would be a major social faux-pas.
3. However, if the gun is inside a box on that table, and I don't know it is there, I'll walk past it quite unconcerned. And the fact of my ignorance makes it no more dangerous than if I could see it. It still won't fire itself. And I maintain that that same other party could walk blythely past that same gun in a box, and he would be in no more danger or emotional distress than I would have been.
4. There is the one in a million chance of a sear failure that others have mentioned, but if that were a common event, you'd be hearing of a lot stories about people getting randomly shot by their own holstered pistols.......and while I'm not saying it's never happened, neither is it any kind of a common occurrence.
5. So, the "problem" (if there is one) is largely a matter of perception (see #3). I understand the perception problem, and as I stated in a previous post, I'd feel reflexively uncomfortable too, but it is really a case of "what you don't know won't hurt you". Wearing a holster holster concealed solves the perception problem.

[Charles L. Cotton]

*I'll readily admit I'm not cool enough to carry a cocked and locked 1911.

I strongly suggest that you don't do this again.

If so, I hope you have one that hasn't been tuned to the point of being unsafe.

You are really pushing it sport. One more time will do it. My 38Super was not tuned to the point it was unsafe. The sear broke, it was a manufacturing defect, not a function of tuning. If you knew anything about 1911's, you would know that a hammer following the slide down is not a safety issue because the half-cock notch on the hammer catches it before it strikes the primer.

Chas.

[TXBO]

From Kathy's article: " If you cannot pick a firearm up without pointing it in an unsafe direction (or if it is already pointed in an unsafe direction), you should not put your hand on it." Please explain to me how you are going to draw your firearm from your shoulder holster without pointing it at the person behind you.

Apart from this, I am in full agreement with Charles. You are responsible for where the muzzle of your gun is pointing not the person behind you or anyone around you. You have the gun; the bystander doesn't. And that is true whether you are OCing or concealed carrying! It is just more obvious when you OC.

Who the heck is Kathy? What gives her caveats to Cooper's 4 rules legitimately?

[OlBill]

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

I don't flag. I don't like being flagged.

A pistol in a holster that properly covers the trigger isn't sweeping or flagging or muzzle covering or whatever you want to call it.
It's an inert object with regards to safety and gun handling unless you put your paws on it.

No different than sitting with an appendix carry holster or tying my shoes with a gun on my side and passing my arm under the barrel.

Flagging is about the muzzle, not the trigger.

[OlBill]

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

I don't flag. I don't like being flagged.

A pistol in a holster that properly covers the trigger isn't sweeping or flagging or muzzle covering or whatever you want to call it.
It's an inert object with regards to safety and gun handling unless you put your paws on it.

I have to disagree with you there. When I'm teaching a class, if the muzzle of a student's handgun points at another student, then the offending student has swept another person with their muzzle, regardless of their placement of their trigger finger. When the muzzle points at something "you are not willing to destroy," that person or thing has been swept.

Yes, horizontal shoulder holsters are safe when properly designed and used for a specific handgun. Nevertheless, at a minimum it is extremely rude and irresponsible to openly wear a horizontal shoulder holster and put other people in fear. I know how they work and I have one of every type (for demonstration purposes) but there's no way on this earth I'd knowingly stand behind some wearing one and stare down the barrel. Safety rules are protocols and protocols are effective only when you follow them all the time.

BTW, covering the trigger may not be the end of the story. For striker-fired weapons it is, but not for hammer-fired handguns. Those handguns need to be secured with a strap that is between the hammer and firing pin because a sear an fail. I know, I had it happen.
Chas.

Your first two paragraphs are in conflict. I agree a muzzle sweep is a safety violation and I agree shoulder holsters are safe, but that's not what you're saying is it? Or is it? Because if you really believe shoulder holsters are safe then by extension you cannot believe that you can be swept by one. Or can you? Second, you're usually the first to point this out to an OP so I'm a bit surprised you did it. I cannot accept your "I know" as factual information alone in either case that you've used it. Elaborate how a sear failure is only dangerous while in a should holster and how that makes a shoulder holster unsafe. I understand that you and most OPs don't like them, but please do not distort firearm safety rules and use fear just to make your point. If it is etiquette reform or firearm safety training from a defensive draw scenario using a shoulder holster then that makes sense. Everything else is indeed a rant.

Would you pick up a pistol in a holster from a table and point it in someone's face?

[TXBO]

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

I don't flag. I don't like being flagged.

A pistol in a holster that properly covers the trigger isn't sweeping or flagging or muzzle covering or whatever you want to call it.
It's an inert object with regards to safety and gun handling unless you put your paws on it.

No different than sitting with an appendix carry holster or tying my shoes with a gun on my side and passing my arm under the barrel.

Heaven forbid you ever need that inert object, but if you did, explain to me how you get it into action from an appendix carry in a sitting positions without covering your most prized possession?

[steveincowtown]

I am not shopping at Academy anymore. I got swept last night by about 50 guns that were sitting in the case.

Just doesn't feel safe.

[ScottDLS]

I am not shopping at Academy anymore. I got swept last night by about 50 guns that were sitting in the case.

Just doesn't feel safe.

I think there is some inherent risk (to oneself and others) in carrying a handgun for self defense.

It is greater than the risk that target shooters take by carrying an unloaded, locked, gun to the range firing line...shooting, then unloading, packing up... and carrying the gun home in a case.

If we are absolutists about the "rules" of safe gun handling, then most of us are violating them by carrying for self defense. That pistol in my glove box is continually "sweeping" passers by and other cars. My holstered CCW is sweeping people on an escalator or on floors below me.

Horizontal shoulder holsters are less safe than other types, whether concealed or not. If you choose to carry with one, the risk to yourself and others is higher whether open or concealed (unless your jacket is bulletproof). Still, lots of lawmen and CHL's carry with them. Are we suggesting they should be banned for open carry? If so, I assume only for the "perception" issue, since the actual risk is the same.

I would argue single action "cocked and locked" carried for self defense is more dangerous than a DA revolver or auto, though many lawmen and firearms experts choose to carry this way. There are just more precautions required to do it responsibly (hammer blocking strap, safety, hard side holster, etc.). Therefore, I choose not to carry this way, though I recognize it can be done safely.

I'm personally not comfortable carrying small striker fired pistols. Seems like most of the ND's we hear about recently involve these, although I'm sure that there are other bad gun handling issues that contribute. However, I don't suggest other people don't carry them...just not for me.

There are still people who insist on carrying DA autos with an empty chamber. I think that's like carrying an unloaded gun, but I'm the guy scared of SA cocked & locked, so again it's a matter of choice and taking responsible precautions.

99% of gun safety is keeping the "booger hook" off the "bang switch" until you mean for it to go bang.

Let the purist flaming begin

[Abraham]

Nah, it'll just fall on deaf ears...

[Charles L. Cotton]

The lengths to which the "any gun, anywhere, anytime, in any manner" crowd will go to divert attention from the topic/issue of the OP's post is quite enlightening. The blog post referenced discussed the public's likely response to standing behind someone wearing a horizontal shoulder holster and the impact that response could well have on a business owner's reaction to open-carry. The focus was clearly on civility and respect for our fellow citizen's feelings about staring down the muzzle of a handgun. It didn't take long to for some people to try to divert the discussion from civility and respect to safety. The blog post and the OP's post wasn't claiming that handguns in shoulder holsters would spontaneously discharge, so the claim was essentially that, "if it's safe, I don't care that it scares or bothers anyone."

[I hope the person talking this photo doesn't object to me posting it. If they do, I'll remove it.]

Look at this photo and tell me that carrying a handgun in this manner is not going to alarm the vast majority of the public that is not part of the gun community, as well as those of us who are part of the gun community and live by the firearm safety rules. I suspect that there will be arrests for violation of TPC §42.01(a)(8) that prohibits "display[ing] a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;" I don't know if the defendant would be convicted, but imagine the impact of this photo on the non-gun-owning jurors. Do you really think your attorney is going to convince them that knowingly carrying a handgun in this fashion isn't going to alarm people?

The more important question is why would a responsible gun owner want to risk alienating the general public and causing a backlash against open-carry?

Chas.