Help for new lady shooter

[SlowDave]

I've got a friend who expressed interest in having a gun for self defense, principally in the home. She's not interested in CHL at this point, and little to no interest in even carrying in the car, so this is, at this point, mainly for the home. However, she requested a pistol. She grew up around guns, but not shooting them herself. She doesn't have a real fear of them, but is unfamiliar and a bit leery of operating them herself.

She now has a Ruger P89 or 95 (can't remember which), but has problems with it. The gun occasionally misfeeds with her shooting it. It has never misfed when I shoot it, as far as I can remember. For her, the misfeed is on the order of once per 50 rounds. When it misfeeds, it is always/nearly always where it has ejected the old round, it has grabbed the new round, but the new round catches on the loading ramp and doesn't quite make it into the chamber. This can be resolved by simply banging the slide forward at which time everything works and it's ready to fire.

A range marshal and some other folks have told me that this is due to a weak hold on the gun, and too much of the recoil going into moving the entire gun, rather than the lower frame being more stationary and the recoil going into the slide to successfully operate the action. This lady is very petite and fairly weak in the hands and wrists. In fact, when I showed her how to shoot it double action, she said it wouldn't fire. Turns out she just had great difficulty pulling through the double action pull. I think that was partly due to having fired a box or two in single action mode, but when she did pull through the double action (after I showed her it was possible), she very much disliked it. She does not have trouble cycling the slide.

My question is, what options are there to overcome this problem? She is not highly motivated towards shooting to the point of doing hand/wrist exercises to prep for shooting. I'd like to encourage rather than discourage her shooting activities, but I worry about her ability to defend herself with this weapon. Is there any chance that polishing the loading ramp in the rear of the barrel will help this? It looks quite polished already, so I'm not too hopeful there.

Someone said I should get her a revolver as it can't jam, but if she greatly dislikes the double action pull of the auto, I'm pretty sure she'll equally hate the DA pull of a revolver, and cocking it for every shot seems like a fail to me. I got her the 9mm because it has lower recoil than my preferred .40. She had shot a .32 before and loved it, but I'm also very nervous about self defense with a .32 as your only recourse. I guess a .380 could be considered.

I have considered the shotgun option, but I think she'd be intimidated by that, as well as it removes the possibility that she would carry at least on trips by herself, which I've encouraged her to do and she said she would.

I'd like not to spend any money, but will if necessary. Just interested in any wisdom this group might have on this topic.

Thanks!

[Rollin2008]

I have been looking for a handgun for my wife and i have come across the bersa thunder 380. i believe this gun was designed for the kind of problems your friend faces. my wife has very small hands and so i was looking into the walther ppk for her but it is just out of the budget.(by the way if you can afford the walther instead of the bersa, by all means go with the walther it is better quality) the gun is made famous by James Bond. These guns are made to be able to be concealed by a flea, so it was another reason i was considering these models. BTW / IMHO a shotgun for home defence is the way to go. But i think that the bersa thunder is alot closer to what your friend might be looking for. There is a video review on youtube about the bersa thunder.380 i think it is an excellent review of the gun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgt65OL7t3c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; <----- (review 1st part)

A picture of my beautiful wife and our home defense choice.

[Tankueray]

For home, I have a shotgun and a S&W .38, it's older than me and probably has at least a 4"barrel. It has a long trigger pull, and you do not have to cock it every time, just pull the trigger. If you do cock it, the trigger is set back and easier to pull. I am new to semi-autos and have a weak wrist as well. I very much prefer the revolver and am a much better shot with it. You might have her shoot a revolver to see if she likes it better. As far as a semi-auto, I've shot a few 9mms and some of them have more of an issue with the "weak wristing" than others. I've found a Glock and a Skyy (Sccy) that weren't bad with it, but a Kimber and a Hi-Point that were. The Skyy is a DAO with a long trigger pull, it tends to make me anticipate the explosion too much and I feel uncomfortable rapid firing. I'm still looking around until I find something I like. (Pawn shop's got a PPK/S for $450) I like the S&W M&P9 with the pink backstrap (and I think Academy is having a sale). I also shot a .40 Baby Eagle the other day and it was a little scary. Longer barreled, heavier guns tend to shoot better for me, and since size doesn't matter for home use, you might try something a little heavier.

I'm really just trying to figure this out myself. Let us know what she goes with.

-Tank

[Oldgringo]

I've got a friend who expressed interest in having a gun for self defense, principally in the home. She's not interested in CHL at this point, and little to no interest in even carrying in the car, so this is, at this point, mainly for the home. However, she requested a pistol. She grew up around guns, but not shooting them herself. She doesn't have a real fear of them, but is unfamiliar and a bit leery of operating them herself.

She now has a Ruger P89 or 95 (can't remember which), but has problems with it. The gun occasionally misfeeds with her shooting it. It has never misfed when I shoot it, as far as I can remember. For her, the misfeed is on the order of once per 50 rounds. When it misfeeds, it is always/nearly always where it has ejected the old round, it has grabbed the new round, but the new round catches on the loading ramp and doesn't quite make it into the chamber. This can be resolved by simply banging the slide forward at which time everything works and it's ready to fire.

A range marshal and some other folks have told me that this is due to a weak hold on the gun, and too much of the recoil going into moving the entire gun, rather than the lower frame being more stationary and the recoil going into the slide to successfully operate the action. This lady is very petite and fairly weak in the hands and wrists. In fact, when I showed her how to shoot it double action, she said it wouldn't fire. Turns out she just had great difficulty pulling through the double action pull. I think that was partly due to having fired a box or two in single action mode, but when she did pull through the double action (after I showed her it was possible), she very much disliked it. She does not have trouble cycling the slide.

My question is, what options are there to overcome this problem? She is not highly motivated towards shooting to the point of doing hand/wrist exercises to prep for shooting. I'd like to encourage rather than discourage her shooting activities, but I worry about her ability to defend herself with this weapon. Is there any chance that polishing the loading ramp in the rear of the barrel will help this? It looks quite polished already, so I'm not too hopeful there.

Someone said I should get her a revolver as it can't jam, but if she greatly dislikes the double action pull of the auto, I'm pretty sure she'll equally hate the DA pull of a revolver, and cocking it for every shot seems like a fail to me. I got her the 9mm because it has lower recoil than my preferred .40. She had shot a .32 before and loved it, but I'm also very nervous about self defense with a .32 as your only recourse. I guess a .380 could be considered.

I have considered the shotgun option, but I think she'd be intimidated by that, as well as it removes the possibility that she would carry at least on trips by herself, which I've encouraged her to do and she said she would.

I'd like not to spend any money, but will if necessary. Just interested in any wisdom this group might have on this topic.

Thanks!

Have you given any thought to gettin' a new friend?

[SlowDave]

Have you given any thought to gettin' a new friend?

You may have mis-interpreted the situation. This is a "friend" also of my wife. I could just not help, if that's what you mean, but doesn't seem to be the best answer. Did appreciate the smiley though.

[SlowDave]

Thanks for the input Tankueray and Rollin. I don't think she'll go with a shotgun, and smaller is (I think) not better in this situation, since concealment is not an issue and smaller generally equals stronger recoil. The point with the revolver is that if she hates the DA pull of the semi, I believe the DA pull of the revolver would be similar and she'd hate that as well and have to cock it for every shot. (The long pull when you don't cock it is the DA or double-action pull. Not to talk down, just to make sure we're all on the same page.) Along that line, I think a DAO auto would be a bad choice, and is another reason the Ruger should be good. It's not a striker with the long trigger pull there, but instead has a relatively short trigger pull in SA--i.e. normal mode.

I agree with the longer/heavier working better in this situation, Tankueray. And the Ruger is a pretty large/heavy piece.

I'll let you know if we find a better solution. You too.

Thanks everyone!

[FlynJay]

I don't think the Ruger P-series is a good choice. The double stack mag makes the grip a little fat and will make it hard to handle for someone with petite hands. I think a single stack 9mm like the Kel-tec PF9 would be a good choice, (I have a friend that has one and can arrange to meet you two at a range if you are in the Houston area). The bersa .380 would also be good.

Whatever she decides on, she has to be comfortable shooting it and willing to practice.

Edit to add: For reference, I have a P95 with close to 4000 rounds through it without a single failure. The problem she is having is due to either poor grip or limp-wristing.

[MoJo]

Have your friend go look at an M&P, Glock or XD if she wants a semi otherwise a good 4" .38 revolver would be a better choice than the Ruger.

[CompVest]

SlowDave,

I think it is great that you are interested in helping your friend. Without seeing her shoot her gun I would be only guessing as to what her or the gun's issues are. I have been running shooting classes for women for several years now. Problems like that are either caused be fatigue if the malfunctions happen at the end of the shooting session, the gun isn't lubricated enough or dirty, or the gun just isn't the right from for the shooter. Other possibilities or ammo related or mechanical issues with the gun.

I am in the Houston area and if you are too and would like to get together with your friend drop me a PM.

My honest opinion is to encourage her to shoot the 32. She likes it, She shoots it well. Far better to have a good hit with a smaller caliber then to have a bad hit or a malfunction with a larger caliber.

Besides if she likes her 32 and is willing to practice with it then eventually she will be ready for something larger. I fail to see any reason to push someone to a larger caliber until they are ready or want to shoot it.

[SlowDave]

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. I'm in the San Antonio area.

Flynjay: I agree the Ruger P-series is not the problem. My dad has one in .40 and it has never mis-fed. Also, the friend's 9mm has never mis-fed when I'm shooting it. I thought the double stack might be a bit big handled, but it feels great in my (small-ish) hands, and I asked her about it and she said it felt fine. Might be attributed to politeness though. That and not much to compare against. (She has shot the .32 though, which is an old Colt single-stack with very small grip relative to the Ruger.)

Mojo: what do the others (Glock, XD, M&P) have that the Ruger does not, other than a heavier trigger pull for the strikers than the Ruger in SA? Also, the revolver I covered before. Either you're firing that in DA mode (which she hates the DA pull on the Ruger semi-auto, I believe she would also be uncomfortable with it in the revolver. And cocking a revolver for every shot seems like a fight-losing proposition.

Compvest: interesting suggestion. Don't know if I mentioned this .32 was mfg'd in ~1922. In other words, it is OLD. Still, has never misfired or misfed in our use, other than the one time I tried to feed it some hollowpoints I found at the store. Just seems like shooting someone with 71 gr FMJ with a full 129 ft.lb of muzzle energy might be just enough to piss them off. And she shoots the 9mm well (accurately) enough at close range (10 yds), just doesn't get too good of a hold on it. Good question and next time we go out, I'm gonna ask her to really hold on for the first clip or two. It could possibly be a fatigue thing that happens later in the shooting, which would be a non-factor for self-defense.

In the end though, if she can't get through a clip or two at the beginning of the session w/o a misfeed, then I think I'll go back to the pre-historic .32 and/or try to talk her into the shotgun option for the house. Wish I was in Houston--I'm sure you could give her some tips and get her shooting just fine. If you're ever in SA or if you know anyone here to recommend, I'd be interested.

Thanks again everyone! This board is truly a great resource!

[CompVest]

SlowDave,

If you haven't got things sorted out by the weekend after the 4th of July. I will be at the San Antonio Gun Show at Cypress FireArms' tables. Please stop by and bring your friend. Stop by even if you have everything sorted out, I would like to meet you.

About the trigger on the M&P, they come from the factory at about 5#. It is a very nice light trigger but not a hair trigger. IMHO it is a smoother trigger then the Glocks. It is a gun that is set up to be comfortably shot with small hands. The XD has a decent trigger as well. The M&P doesn't have any mechanical safeties to bother with and the XD has just about all of them. This allows shooters to choose what method of carry they are comforatable with. The M&P sits low in the hand which allows for easier recoil management. Again gun choice is personal and all three of the above guns have their following and each are excellent guns.

Age of the gun doesn't matter. Keep those machines running!

[MoJo]

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. I'm in the San Antonio area.


Mojo: what do the others (Glock, XD, M&P) have that the Ruger does not, other than a heavier trigger pull for the strikers than the Ruger in SA? Also, the revolver I covered before. Either you're firing that in DA mode (which she hates the DA pull on the Ruger semi-auto, I believe she would also be uncomfortable with it in the revolver. And cocking a revolver for every shot seems like a fight-losing proposition.

All three have one trigger pull so you don't have to adapt DA to SA and no manual safety. The trigger pull on all three is often better and lighter than the SA pull on a lot of DA/SA guns. The M&P has interchangeable back straps to fit the gun to different hand sizes. The XDm also has interchangeable back straps. All three have full size and compact models that adds to her choices. They are the ultimate point and shoot guns I don't think anyone can go wrong with any of the three for a self defense gun.

[UpTheIrons]

SlowDave,

If you haven't got things sorted out by the weekend after the 4th of July. I will be at the San Antonio Gun Show at Cypress FireArms' tables. Please stop by and bring your friend. Stop by even if you have everything sorted out, I would like to meet you.

Is that the Texas Show in Live Oak or the Saxet Show at the Freeman?

I'm not SlowDave, but my wife would probably like to talk 1911s with you! Also, will you be there both days?

[SlowDave]

Mojo: what do the others (Glock, XD, M&P) have that the Ruger does not, other than a heavier trigger pull for the strikers than the Ruger in SA?

All three have one trigger pull so you don't have to adapt DA to SA and no manual safety. The trigger pull on all three is often better and lighter than the SA pull on a lot of DA/SA guns. The M&P has interchangeable back straps to fit the gun to different hand sizes. The XDm also has interchangeable back straps. All three have full size and compact models that adds to her choices. They are the ultimate point and shoot guns I don't think anyone can go wrong with any of the three for a self defense gun.

Since she doesn't like the DA pull, the routine would be either to keep the gun w/o one in the cylinder and rack it when ready to use (I know a ton of you hate that approach and she might lose 1/4 second, but that's about as good as it's gonna get, so bear with me), or else leave it with one in the chamber and decocked, in which case you pick it up, cock it, and begin firing all SA mode. So, the difference between DA and SA pull is a non-issue. And I disagree, having shot Glocks and two of these Rugers, that the Glock is a lighter or shorter trigger pull than the Ruger in SA.

I don't need compact in this situation, imho. If I had the option, I might add a 1-2 lb weight on the picatinny rail to help stabilize the gun against recoil. So the option of a compact is a non-issue. The interchangeable backstraps could be a big positive. The other negative to all of these is that I need to find another $500 or so. :(

Most importantly, there is nothing in this discussion that will possibly reduce the liklihood of misfeeds due to weak wristing, other than possibly the adjustable backstrap. Better trigger's not gonna do that, nor will compact, or lack of safeties, nor will striker vs. SA operation.

I know the group is generally in favor of point and shoot, but this is a lady with kids in the house who is still somewhat uncomfortable with a loaded weapon in the house. The presence of a safety, and the option to leave it w/o one in the chamber, or uncocked, are positives for her as they give her options that she can use as she becomes more comfortable with having a weapon around. If I didn't want a safety, I could have easily gotten the decocker-only version of the Ruger.

[SlowDave]

SlowDave,

If you haven't got things sorted out by the weekend after the 4th of July. I will be at the San Antonio Gun Show at Cypress FireArms' tables. Please stop by and bring your friend. Stop by even if you have everything sorted out, I would like to meet you.

About the trigger on the M&P, they come from the factory at about 5#. It is a very nice light trigger but not a hair trigger. IMHO it is a smoother trigger then the Glocks. It is a gun that is set up to be comfortably shot with small hands. The XD has a decent trigger as well. The M&P doesn't have any mechanical safeties to bother with and the XD has just about all of them. This allows shooters to choose what method of carry they are comforatable with. The M&P sits low in the hand which allows for easier recoil management. Again gun choice is personal and all three of the above guns have their following and each are excellent guns.

Age of the gun doesn't matter. Keep those machines running!

Thanks for the very generous offer. I doubt it will happen as I can't quite see her actually going to a gun show. I realize that not everyone is like me and gets a huge thrill out of a gun show. I'll see what I can do, but appreciate the offer in any case.

Wonder if this "sitting low in the hand" of the M&P would be enough to tilt the table in her favor, especially with the other poster's mention of adjustable backstrap. (Still can't say "backstrap" without thinking of venison frying in the pan.

One more question: you say that "each are excellent guns" of the M&P, XD, and Glock. Would you not make the same statement about the Ruger? (I would, up to this point, as I have nothing against them.)

Still not extremely comfortable with the 87 year-old .32, but might fall back to that if I can't come up with something better. Again, thanks for the offer and advice.