TexasCHLforum.com

Hi, everyone. I completed my renewal class last Thursday evening (I wasn't paying attention and let my CHL expire!) and I'm really not sure about the instructor. I took the class at Jefferson County Sheriff's Office in Beaumont, and the instructor stated that he wasn't sure that arming citizens was the best idea...everyone knows that police officers practice more than citizens, and they miss 86% of their shots, so how can we mere civilians expect to do any good? This didn't appear to be the time for a philosophical discussion, so I didn't ask why he was teaching, but I'm really kinda curious. Have any of you had similar experiences? How did you handle it? Thanks for any feedback!
CATS

Uhhh, ok. Kinda sounds like he is a 9-5'er, just out for a paycheck.

Oh, and Welcome to the Forum!

~Bill

cats1948 wrote:Hi, everyone. I completed my renewal class last Thursday evening (I wasn't paying attention and let my CHL expire!) and I'm really not sure about the instructor. I took the class at Jefferson County Sheriff's Office in Beaumont, and the instructor stated that he wasn't sure that arming citizens was the best idea...everyone knows that police officers practice more than citizens, and they miss 86% of their shots, so how can we mere civilians expect to do any good?

Wow. Sounds just like Sgt. H.B. Norris of Jersey City, but he's from Harris County. I wonder if your instructor is related?

A veteran from the nearby Jersey Village Police Department, Sgt. H. B. Norris, arrived to take our fingerprints. He looked at us sadly. The “hit rate� for police in gunfights is 14 percent — meaning that 86 percent of the time officers miss their targets — he said. “I really worry about you people because I’ve been doing this all my life,� Sergeant Norris said.

Kevin

What a couple of dipsticks, that's some insane logic. ( Jim gets on his soap box)

For 1 thing even if I miss 90% of my shots I will still get 1 or 2 of my 11 rounds of .40acp into the target! Still better odds than standing there unarmed waiting for officer negitive to save me. (No disrespect to al lthe good LEO's)

Second, I still pratice more than the bag guys so I still stand a better chance against a would be robber, mugger, hijacker..... etc.

Third, Every LEO I have met thinks armed citizens can do nothing but good.
(Jim gets off soap box)

I had an instructor I won't go back to in 5 years. I'll find me a new one.

Welcome cats1948, glad to see you got your login problem solved. Going to shoot Saturday?

Diode wrote:What a couple of dipsticks, that's some insane logic. ( Jim gets on his soap box)

For 1 thing even if I miss 90% of my shots I will still get 1 or 2 of my 11 rounds of .40acp into the target! Still better odds than standing there unarmed waiting for officer negitive to save me. (No disrespect to al lthe good LEO's)

and where do your 8 other shots go? Into me or my family? How about you practice more and get better.

Guys, do you know why SWAT teams and other speciality units have nearly 100% hits? 1, more and better practice, and 2, mindset.

I agree that the people who made the idiotic comments about hit ratios are morons, but they have a point. Hit ratios ARE low. You can't just accept the fact of low hit ratios and pray for the best. You must practice to improve yourself.

Here is a little reminder that is significant for hit ratios;

From the Texas Penal Code, Use of Force;


Text
§9.05. Reckless injury of innocent third person.

Even though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening
or using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also
recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the justification
afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a prosecution for the reckless
injury or killing of the innocent third person.

txinvestigator wrote:

Diode wrote:What a couple of dipsticks, that's some insane logic. ( Jim gets on his soap box)

For 1 thing even if I miss 90% of my shots I will still get 1 or 2 of my 11 rounds of .40acp into the target! Still better odds than standing there unarmed waiting for officer negitive to save me. (No disrespect to al lthe good LEO's)

and where do your 8 other shots go? Into me or my family? How about you practice more and get better. [/b]

Sorry TX, I wasn't planning on flinging 8 wild one out there. Only making the point if under extreme pressure or suprise, I would still be better off hitting my target 10% of the time rather than being unarmed. Like most of the people in here, we read, listen and learn form you guys who have been doing this a while. I also pratice weekly at the range and God willing someday taking some classes. I do understand your point!

The assumption that most CHL holders will not practice much seems, to me, flawed.

Taking on the responsibility of going armed, and accepting the possiblity of having to actually draw and shoot at an attacker, along with the paragraph - §9.05. Reckless injury of innocent third person - that txinvestigator quoted, it seems to me that most people would do their very best to get good enough to hit - and not miss.

Maybe I'm naive of foolish, or maybe I read the forum too much, but I don't know anyone who carries a pistol who does not also shoot often and strive to improve.

Do any of you know CHL holders who carry but seldom shoot?

Regards,
Andrew

Bobcat:
I don't know any CHL holders like that personally. However, in my CHL class, there were several older (70+) guys in there for renewal that admitted they had not shot since their last renewal class. SCARY!

texag06 wrote:Bobcat:
I don't know any CHL holders like that personally. However, in my CHL class, there were several older (70+) guys in there for renewal that admitted they had not shot since their last renewal class. SCARY!

There was a couple of renewers in our class that fessed up to not shooting since there last renewal. It did strike me as odd.

I know of an incident at the range in texas city where a chl holder arrived at the range went to get out of car and pointed his firearm at his child several times before he entered the facility. The range master said something to him about it and he got very upset/verbal about it. In the end he was asked to leave the range. Unfortuinately not everyone should have a chl. Things like this, where there is an accidential shooting, give the anti-guns more to open their mouthes about. Personally, I go to the range every chance I get.

Some time ago there was an LEO who shot with us at PSC-IDPA very regularly. He was GOOD. However he made it a point to recruit his fellow officers to come shoot with us, and over several months a fair number of them came -- once. The most common reason cited for them not coming back was that they were embarrased because the 'civilians' were shooting so much better than they were.

Thanx,
TraCoun

BobCat wrote: Do any of you know CHL holders who carry but seldom shoot?

Yeah, I'm afraid I do. I worry more about the renewals in my classes then the newbies. The newbies are afraid they won't pass the proficiency test, so they practice, practice, practice until they take the class.

The renewals know how rediculously easy the test is, so many of them never take their firearms out of the case for the next 5 years.

I try to split the new ones from the renewals on the range. I tell them it's so the newbies won't be so nervous, but really, it's because the renewals usually don't listen or follow instructions. And then I get angry. Sometimes REALLY angry. And the newbies just don't need to see that.

BobCat wrote:
Do any of you know CHL holders who carry but seldom shoot?

Andrew

The instructor I go to is also a friend. I have sat through several classes w/ folks that I have taught to shoot & prepared for the class. He puts me to work setting up the range when I am there. On one such occassion there was a VietNaim combat Vet there. (I knew him pretty well too & was astounded) He laughed about not having shot his weapon since last qualifying nor had it been cleaned since then either. He does not carry on any regular basis though. About half way through the seven yd station it would not go into battery & he had to push the slide home every round. Instructor told him if he could not meet the time limits he would have to come back & shoot again. Still qualified.

Oy Vey. Such a can of worms... I'm almost sorry I asked, but it is better to know than to not know.

Quoting CATS1948:
"...he wasn't sure that arming citizens was the best idea...everyone knows that police officers practice more than citizens, and they miss 86% of their shots, so how can we mere civilians expect to do any good?"

First off, I'm not sure I would call it "arming citizens" - we citizens are arming ourselves.

From some of the feedback here, it seems that there *are* CHL holders who are not proficient - so maybe that supports the instructor's position.

OTOH when a police officer arrives at the scene of an altercation, it may not be entirely clear who the aggressor is, accounting for perhaps the "wrong" person getting shot - versus an armed citizen shooting a clear aggressor.

OTTH (on the third hand) - practice at the range can only take one so far. Learning to perform under pressure may be more important than being able to shoot well with only a score at stake.

Apologies... I'm rambling. Taken aback at the idea of CHL holders who do not take their responsibilities seriously enough to maintain their shooting abilities, or who maybe don't *really* think it could ever happen, so they have a pistol and a CHL and atrophied skills, but "it is ok because they will never really need it."

Regards,
Andrew

PS CATS1948 - if your screen name means you like cats, if you are looking for one/some - PM me.