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I just recently purchased my first firearm, a Smith & Wesson 1911. My question is this: I know the .45 has considerable stopping power, should I even bother with the hollow tip ammunition when I carry in public?

I've never witnessed what the full metal jacket .45 does after penetration, will it fragment or should I invest in some defense loads? Will hollow tip reduce its effectiveness?

The only real problem I have with Full Metal Jacket ammo (aka FMJ) is that it has enough energy to completely pass through a human body. Jacketed hollow point ammo (aka JHP) is designed to expand inside the body, thereby helping prevent the bullet from passing completely through the body as well as enlarging the permanent wound channel (the real damage to the shootee) to help increase the speed with which the shootee stops doing whatever it was that made the shooter shoot in the first place.

Personally, I carry Hydrashok HST JHP ammo in my .45 ACP pistols. I figure that since it feeds reliably and has advantages over JHP, and that since it will never be smaller than .45, the potential advantages make it worthwhile.

My father is a Korean War-era Marine, and he carries FMJ in everything. He says he wants to be sure that it will function and that a .45" hole is big enough if you shoot them 'til the magazine is empty.

Almost forgot...
FMJ ammo doesn't usually fragment at pistol speeds (rifles are a different ballgame). JHP ammo sometimes does (you'll find there is a lot of "sometimes does" with JHP) come apart, but I don't know that I would worry too much about that. In the case of flying ashtrays (JHP in .45 ACP), having it break up a bit just means more wound channels and more damage. If I'm shooting someone and the round breaks up some, that mostly means they will hopefully stop more quickly.

My opinion is that FMJ in a carry gun is a bit irresponsible. Too easy to pass through the bad guy and hit something that didn't need shooting. With JHP, at least you've taken precautions to prevent that. I'm sure others may disagree.

No, hollow tips don't reduce effectiveness, they increase it. And they will pass through solids like sheet metal and building materials same as a FMJ. They expand when they hit water or stuff made out of water.

android wrote:My opinion is that FMJ in a carry gun is a bit irresponsible. Too easy to pass through the bad guy and hit something that didn't need shooting. With JHP, at least you've taken precautions to prevent that. I'm sure others may disagree.

No, hollow tips don't reduce effectiveness, they increase it. And they will pass through solids like sheet metal and building materials same as a FMJ. They expand when they hit water or stuff made out of water.

I totally agree android. If using FMJ ammo and you have to shoot a bad guy, and the bullet passes through the BG and hits an innocent party, YOU can be charged with a felony....something you definitely want to avoid.

karl_311 wrote:I just recently purchased my first firearm, a Smith & Wesson 1911. My question is this: I know the .45 has considerable stopping power, should I even bother with the hollow tip ammunition when I carry in public?

I've never witnessed what the full metal jacket .45 does after penetration, will it fragment or should I invest in some defense loads? Will hollow tip reduce its effectiveness?

I would highly recommend HP ammo for self defense use for the pass through issue. I highly recommend Corbon. I've seen Corbon in .40 S&W liquify the insides of a deer before, and I'm convinced it provides everything we need in personal defense ammo.

I totally agree with JHP ammo. Nothing but advantages in stopping power. I would recommend shooting some thru your gun.

With most defensive calibers (.38 Special, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .357 Magnum, 10mm, and .45 ACP), I absolutely agree JHP is the way to go. With some smaller calibers, .380, .32, .25 ... there is a possibility of not getting enough penetration with some weak-loaded JHP rounds. If you're using top quality JHPs in .380, you're probably fine. But some weaker loads won't penetrate or expand sufficiently with .380 or less. Of course, I wouldn't willingly carrying anything less than a .380 (and even that is a compromise for convenience sake), but there are some who do. So just wanted to toss in that caveat.

I wholeheartedly support the concept of JHP ammo as a conscientious choice to protect the lives of innocent bystanders. This is a 180-degree turnaround from the concept used by the over-active imaginations of some prosecutors you hear about in the grapevine who equate using JHP ammo by a civilian to "showing intent to kill, not to stop, an attacker" or worse "premeditated cold-blooded murder".

The more we as a gun community can explain these concepts to the larger non-gun populace, the better of we'll be.

Hollow Points FTW.

Mithras61 wrote:My father is a Korean War-era Marine, and he carries FMJ in everything. He says he wants to be sure that it will function and that a .45" hole is big enough if you shoot them 'til the magazine is empty.

I own my father's WW2 era 1911, made by Ithaca in 1943 — and it cycles hollowpoints just fine, including Corbon's infamous +P 185 grain "flying ashcans" (which I only did after installing an 18 pound recoil spring and buffer pad from King's Gun Works). A properly functioning 1911 ought to be able to digest just about anything, particularly a modern S&W. For what it's worth, I carried and function fired 230 grain Hydro-Shoks in my 3" Kimber and they worked just fine. I've also carried both HST and Gold Dots.

Pretty much any premium quality hollowpoint ammunition should serve you well, but the bottom line is you should test fire at a range if you have any qualms about function. And by the way, I've had FMJs jam in a 1911 before. Poor ammo quality, limp-wristing, a dirty gun, whatever... FMJs are not "jam-proof." The main advantage to an FMJ is if you want to shoot through a car door, or windshield glass, or something like that. And if you do, Gold Dots still perform quite well in that regard.

Use JHP's for your self-defense rounds. If you use any of the name brands you
should be fine. In case you ever have to fire your weapon in self-defense, it will
help you if it reaches court. You can say that you chose the same brand xxxxx as the
LEO's use. You figure that the LEO's must know what they are doing, right?

As a new handgunner it would seem unlikely that you would immediately jump into
handloads, but don't use these as self-defense rounds even if you can get some from a
friend. Reason: An over-aggressive prosecutor may portray this as your need to have a
"more deadly" bullet. He could say your quality control at home meant you had too many
grains of powder. Blah, blah, blah.

As if using name brand .45 JHP's isn't deadly enough!

FMJ's are the usual for range ammo and they are cheaper.

But you should definitely run a healthy number of your chosen brand's JHP's through your
weapon to make sure they operate well.

SIA

There is a great article in the September issue of "American Rifleman" that examines Winchester's and Hornady's solution to defensive handgun ammunition. Hornady (Critical Defense FTX) takes the stand that you don't want a round that is designed to penetrate barriers but will still provide massive stopping power. Winchester (Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1) takes the opposite view, most bad guy's are going to try and hide behind something and you need a defensive ammo that will penetrate and still knock the BG down.

Right now I am using the PDX1 for both my Kel-Tec PF9 9mm and my H&K USP .40, there are pros and cons of both the Winchester and Hornady, but I like the stopping power and they feed reliably in both pistols.

Well seeing how hard it is to find ammo I would say shoot what you can afford to buy. I currently have a mag and a half of JHP the other half of FMJ, only because that was what I had left after the qualifying at class and some practise at a friends land and those were at $50 a box. I believe I have 2 boxes of FMJ in the closet and again only because I was lucky to find some rounds, If I had an easy choice JHP or pre-fragmented rounds for SD.

suthdj wrote:Well seeing how hard it is to find ammo I would say shoot what you can afford to buy. I currently have a mag and a half of JHP the other half of FMJ, only because that was what I had left after the qualifying at class and some practise at a friends land and those were at $50 a box. I believe I have 2 boxes of FMJ in the closet and again only because I was lucky to find some rounds, If I had an easy choice JHP or pre-fragmented rounds for SD.

What do you shoot and where do you live? Folks here on the forum can probably help you find a few more boxes of ammo at a decent price. If you're in Austin area, GT Distributors will sell you 100 rounds of particular "civilian authorized" ammo, including some good JHP rounds. 50-round boxes of Federal Tactical or Speer Gold Dot for less than $25 each box in 9mm (that's less than 50 cents per round for quality ammo that cops have been using for years). Federal American Eagle FMJ target ammo for $11 per 50-round box.

I'd suggest hollowpoints that shoot to point of aim.

Check the data offered by Dr. Gary Roberts of the IWBA.

.45 ACP:
Barnes/Taurus 185 gr JHP
Federal 230 gr Tactical (LE45T1)
Speer 230 gr Gold Dot (23966).
Winchester 230 gr Ranger Talon (RA45T)
Winchester 230 gr +P Ranger Talon (RA45TP)

found here:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wbr.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;