Black Friday & thinking like a newbie...Part 2

[Gracegarden]

So, here is the first thought, "If I had my gun I'd...!
Well, I'd what? Shoot them in the leg, slow them down, shoot a tire? C'mon...too much tv.
**They are running from the scene, imminent danger doesn't apply. Believe it or not, that was a hard one to swallow.

Follow them until APD or SV catches them. Okay this happened. But the whole time it was, ME: Hurry, don't lose them...
DH: I don't want them to see us
ME: Hurry they're turning into the parking lot
DH: I don't want them to see us
ME: we need information
DH: (repeat above)
ME: Hurry, hurry! They're pulling out again
ME: what is wrong with you?
DH: Um, our car is bright orange and they have a gun
ME: Oh. Yeah.
ME: But it's dark. It's our duty. C'mon hurry.
DH: It is not our duty, not our obligation
ME: It'll be okay, just drive faster!
(By now he is in full tremble mode...I'm ready to...well, I don't know what, but probably put our lives in danger.
**They have guns. We have a really nice Dodge Daytona and a cell phone. Not really a good match in hand to hand combat with BGs.

Time to return to the store and do reports. Ho, hum.
Every who asked me questions got the same answer, "Gosh! I don't know, we weren't in there. I hope no one was hurt."
(The police did get our full cooperation.)
No sleep that night.
**Adrenaline can be an inconvenience.

For the next three nights I woke up in the wee hours vomitting my guts out. Not sick, no dreams, nothing.
During the day I constantly thought about the situation. How would having a gun have changed things?
Would I have been a total fool? What was the right thing to do. I could find no solution, nothing to calm me, no plan to formulate for next time.
**Having a gun did not automatically make me a hero.

There were four kids, three guns.
Oiy! Two might be doable, but four? Three guns? They were going to shoot back!
**Now what?!?!

I studied this board, these forums have been read and re-read...
I am still not happy with my lack of action, and my lack of solution for "next time," but I have to comfort myself with "They are running from the scene, imminent danger doesn't apply."

Two nights ago I stumbled upon something that for me was earth shattering. It never occurred to me. How could I have fooled myself so thoroughly?
Forever in my mind will live this simple, but oh, so important fact... "Carrying a gun does not make you bullet-proof."

Jokes, taunts, bits of wisdom, and other miscellaneous comments are welcome!

[Originalist]

First welcome to the forum, second if you get 100 replies you will get 100 different opinions so from me (keep in mind IANAL)

This is where it comes to word play, were they running away from the store with their guns out OR were they running TOWARDS you with their guns out?
Running toward you w/ gun out = opportunity and capability, just waiting for intent.

Here is the applicable Penal Code Sections (in reverse)

Sec.A9.43.AAPROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON ’S PROPERTY.A A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1)AAthe actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
(2)AAthe actor reasonably believes that:
(A)AAthe third person has requested his protection of the land or property;
(B)AAhe has a legal duty to protect the third person ’s land or property; or
(C)AAthe third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor ’s spouse, parent,
or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor ’s care.

here is 9.42

Sec.A9.42.AADEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.A A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1)AAif he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2)AAwhen and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A)AAto prevent the other ’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B)AAto prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3)AAhe reasonably believes that:
(A)AAthe land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B)AAthe use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Here is 9.41

Sec.A9.41.AAPROTECTION OF ONE ’S OWN PROPERTY.A (a)AAA person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other ’s trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
(b)AAA person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:
(1)AAthe actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
(2)AAthe other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

What it comes down to is what the law says and how much you are willing to expose yourself for certain things. Some people feel lethal force is too much to even protect their own property and some people feel completely opposite. I take it they got away?? When you carry and you think about getting involved with your weapon you have to play things out 3, 4, or 5 moves ahead to make sure you walk away from an incident like that. Personally, I think you did your best (and more than most) with what you had. Taking someone's life (or attempting) is going to have serious implications on your life no matter what happens or how justified you are. Learn for you, what it is your willing to do and how far you are going to extend yourself for you, somone you love, some stranger, etc, etc, etc.

Could you of shot them? I think YES. Would I of shot them? I do not honestly know, it would depend if I was alone or I had my kids with me, etc.

You will get much more educated people here than me with loads of info, opinions, suggestions, etc.


Bryan

[LittleGun]

I think you did well in running for cover and calling the police.

[Skiprr]

I'll echo the welcome to the Forum. And doubly so because we need many more women to take the step that you did: to get your CHL and arm yourself. Fewer than 1% of Texans have a CHL, and fewer than 18% of those are women. That needs to change.

One comment before anything else: Our host here, Charles Cotton, occasionally conducts a seminar on the use and aftermath of deadly force. Watch for it, and if you can attend one in 2009, I strongly recommend it.

A corollary, and one that folks around here get sick of hearing from me: seek out more advanced training from a nationally-known source. I think it's an extremely valuable few-hundred dollars spent for people who decide to carry a gun. No dispersions cast toward your local range instructor, but trainers with a well-known reputation generally bring at least two additional things to the table: significant experience, and an established course curriculum.

Your closing comment is, for me, a vital learning point applicable to everyone:

Forever in my mind will live this simple, but oh, so important fact... "Carrying a gun does not make you bullet-proof."

I often use the phrase, "A gun is not a magic wand." Some have taken that as an affront, but in the 21st century I believe it's something our ancestors knew that our modern, urban society has largely forgotten. A gun is a tool, no more and no less.

And you were absolutely correct to point to movies and TV as a major culprit. Indiana Jones pulls out his revolver and fires 28 rounds without reloading; Angelina Jolie whips her arm and makes the path of a bullet curve; an actor shot in the torso with a handgun is slammed down to the ground; an actor shot with a shotgun is literally blown backward. These idiocies--and dare I include video games?--have completely and bizarrely distorted what a gun is and what it can do.

Although I've never found a definitive study, numerous reports indicate that being shot by a handgun results in an average mortality rate of less than 20%. Meaning over 80% of shooting victims (and I use that term in context only) survive being shot. The mortality rate is much higher for shotguns and rifles.

In many gangs, having the scars to prove you've been shot is a badge of honor. And even if the bad guy doesn't fear your drawn gun because he's been shot before, never assume a VCA (Violent Criminal Actor) is wired the same way you are.

You may be risk-averse about driving without your seatbelt. He may feel he has nothing to lose (or total commitment to La Familia) and will kill or be killed without hesitation.

Dwell on that for that for just a moment.

Oiy! Two might be doable, but four? Three guns? They were going to shoot back!

Down to brass tacks. IMHO.

Four VCAs with three known guns, no lead flying, and no emerging hostage situation is a condition no law enforcement agency would advise a single operator to engage with gunfire unless deemed absolutely necessary.

Thinking you, as a civilian CHL, could handle a situation like that is naive and wrong.

Your consideration of even going to gun was wrong unless you or a family member were directly threatened, or perhaps if the VCAs had a hostage whose life you felt was in immediate danger.

In my humble opinion, your chasing after the perps was also wrong. And it was an extremely dangerous thing to do. Get a plate number, get what descriptions you can of the vehicle and the perps, and do your best to be a good witness.

A quote from my favorite Clint Eastwood movie is: "A man's gotta know his limitations."

The job the police do is not what you signed on for when you submitted you CHL application. I think that's an important distinction to realize.

(Edited to make a couple of minor corrections.)

[Gracegarden]

Thank you for all the responses.
First, please know I am not easily offended. I have a great sense of humor, I don't take things too seriously (unless it is truly intended that way) and if I am unsure of something (language, meaning, possible 'snarkiness,' etc.) I ask for clarification.

You all gave me a lot to think about.
One thing I have a problem with (personally) is "not my duty/responsibility..." I have always been for the underdog, always tried to do right - no matter what the obstacles.
If we had not persued the vehicle (for better identification and changing location) I would have thought myself a failure. A coward. I would have lost sleep.

I believe it is up to us, the population, to set things right where we can, influence others to do right, stick our neck out where possible.
If everyone said, ''it isn't my duty, the police signed up for this" then the world would be in far worse shape than it is.
Isn't that why many of us have guns; to protect, to neutralize a threat, to right a potential wrong?

Still thinking this through...please feel free to continue to add your thoughts. I want to do right.

[Humanphibian]

IMO....and it's just that, an opinion

YOU WIN!

You are still around to discuss the incident. Nobody lost their life as a result of your actions, and you and yours made it through as a direct result of what you chose to do.

Are their things that you could have done differently and still had the same outcome,...sure. Could you have done the exact same thing you did and things end far worse...absolutly. You will never be able to run every possible scenario through in your mind, there are far too many variables. All you can do is analyse what you had control over, and make notes for (God forbid!) next time.

Welcome Aboard!

Ya may wanna post this in the "Never Again" section.......I had a recent domestic incedent which was posted there. I received TONS of priceless info and discussion.

Stay Safe
1*

[The Annoyed Man]

Welcome to the board.

First a question... I'm a little confused about what happened because of the way you describe it. Chalk that up to me. I've got "halfheimers." Do I understand correctly that you work in a business that was robbed or had merchandise shoplifted, and you pursued the thieves; and that while pursuing the thieves, you actually considered engaging them in a gunfight in order to recover the stolen money/property?

What follows is based on the assumption that what I've written above is correct.

First, I am very glad you're alive.

Second, pursuing them was not the smartest thing you've ever done.

Third, engaging the CVAs in a gunfight would have likely been the last thing you ever did.

There have been lots of debates on this board over whether nor not property is worth either killing over, or dying for. But in each of those discussions, the items in question were the personal property of someone with a CHL. In those cases, the property owner/CHL holder has to make the determination for themselves as to whether or not their property is worth a human life. But, one of the inescapable truths is that the human life in the balance may be your own, not the perpetrator's, if things go wrong. In that light, you have to reassess the question of whether or not property is worth a life.

But in the case of property belonging to a business which most likely has insurance exactly for that kind of reason, pursuing the crims and putting both yours and someone else's lives at risk over stolen property was, in my opinion, a foolish thing to do. I admire your passion regarding justice, but in this particular case, I think it was misplaced.

If I haven't properly understood what went down, please forgive me, and I'll take back what I said here.

[Humanphibian]

FYI....This post has been started (continued) in the "Never Again" section for post-incident discussion.

Mods......Can ya'll combine the threads??

[Skiprr]

Do I understand correctly that you work in a business that was robbed or had merchandise shoplifted, and you pursued the thieves; and that while pursuing the thieves, you actually considered engaging them in a gunfight in order to recover the stolen money/property?

TAM, the described incident relates to these news stories: Dallas Morning News and KEYE TV.

[Gracegarden]

Wow! The Annoyed Man , You did not get the story correct at all!
I do truly appreciate your input though. Things to think about and to help reinforce my beliefs.

I do not place belongings, inventory, precious photos, anything, above the life of a person. Nothing is that important!

The reason for the "chase" was to "do the right thing." "Not let the BG get away," To get dangerous people off the street.
I could not care less about Academy inventory.

Thank you for your concern and for taking the time to post your opinion, really.
I guess it isn't my job to "get dangerous people off the street" but I seem to be hard-wired that way. To be completely honest I'm not sure I want to change that part of myself. I have been this way since being a young child. Perhaps it is self-esteem issues (everybody deserves a chance to live - at my personal sacrifice) or maybe I just can't stand being forced to watch a 'wrong' anymore.
We deserve our sense of security, our self-respect, our right to walk our children down the street in safety.
Helping to eliminate the threat is all I know to do.

[The Annoyed Man]

Wow! The Annoyed Man , You did not get the story correct at all!
I do truly appreciate your input though. Things to think about and to help reinforce my beliefs.

I do not place belongings, inventory, precious photos, anything, above the life of a person. Nothing is that important!

The reason for the "chase" was to "do the right thing." "Not let the BG get away," To get dangerous people off the street.
I could not care less about Academy inventory.

Thank you for your concern and for taking the time to post your opinion, really.
I guess it isn't my job to "get dangerous people off the street" but I seem to be hard-wired that way. To be completely honest I'm not sure I want to change that part of myself. I have been this way since being a young child. Perhaps it is self-esteem issues (everybody deserves a chance to live - at my personal sacrifice) or maybe I just can't stand being forced to watch a 'wrong' anymore.
We deserve our sense of security, our self-respect, our right to walk our children down the street in safety.
Helping to eliminate the threat is all I know to do.

In that case, I apologize for not understanding the situation. Fortunately, Skiprr let me know the origins of the story in his post previous to your response. My point about property wasn't so much whether or not property = human life, but rather, does property = my life, or your life. I don't really care about the perpetrator's life so much. The issue was whether or not property was worth dying for.

But that apparently wasn't the issue in your story.

Like I said, I admire your passion for justice. I only question the wisdom of putting yourself at risk by chasing down the perps. For instance, I don't know if you and your husband have kids, but if you do, then if I were in your shoes, coming home to my kids alive and safe would take a higher priority than chasing down bad guys if doing so would put me at risk. I don't get paid for that.

I think that pretty much everybody on this board wants to do the right thing, not let bad guys get away with it, and get dangerous people off the street. That being said, the percentage of members here who actually have actually had (and more importantly, maintained current certification in) tactical training, including shoot/don't shoot scenarios, etc., is probably a minority percentage. That would certainly count me out. I'm a somewhat overweight, out of condition, 56 year old fart with a bad back, bad knees, and a bum left ankle. I'm sure as heck not going to go chasing people down. I'm not sure I would know what to do if I caught them. It's like that parable of the dog chasing the car. What's the dog going to do when he catches it? Nope, runnin' and gunnin' ain't for me.

That being said, I'll do what I have to do when trouble comes to me. I'm just not going to go looking for it.

I would say that my primary responsibilities are, in this order, 1) defend myself if necessary; 2) be a good witness; and 3) stand back and let the professionals do their jobs. But that's just me.

[Gracegarden]

Thank you, Annoyed Man, we are definately on the same page. No offense taken here and hopefully not on your end either.
As I recently wrote in a PM, carrying was a very big decision for me. I'm actually still in the baby-steps stage...getting comfortable with the gun, drawing while issuing my verbal warning, etc. I am not physically fit either and have been acquiring extra instruction, range time...I am lacking in knowledge in every department possible! It is very overwhelming for me!

It is nice to have a place to come for batting around scenarios, (hmm, cheerios...) must be hungry...
Anyway...
I appreciate this place and am anxious for more knowledge, more confidence...Thank you!

[Originalist]

For help w/ the weight of the gun, while your watching TV, during commercials hold a can of vegetables (or similar 10-16oz can) as long as you before your arm shakes. Work on this periodically until you develop the arm strength to hold it out solid for 3-7 minutes w/o shaking. - - My wife doesn't have alot of upper body strength and this exercise helped her alot.

[Gracegarden]

For help w/ the weight of the gun, while your watching TV, during commercials hold a can of vegetables (or similar 10-16oz can) as long as you before your arm shakes. Work on this periodically until you develop the arm strength to hold it out solid for 3-7 minutes w/o shaking. - - My wife doesn't have alot of upper body strength and this exercise helped her alot.

I'll definately try that!

[RPBrown]

Maybe I'm on the other side of the fence but in my .02, I think you did reasonably well. I do think it is our moral duty to do what we can SAFELY to gain information for LEO. I can't say I would do any different in your situation.

The best I can tell you is to be vigialnt and know your surroundings armed or not. As has been stated here many times "the best weapon you have is between your ears."

But also, just because you are armed, this doesn't give you any more reason to put your self in more danger by getting closer than you would if you weren't armed.