Pulling weapon to diffuse a road rage scenario?

[gigag04]

Gang members are like cockroaches, they scatter when threatened and are not in greater numbers

Hehe....this is hilarious. The west side of my city (my AOR) says otherwise...

[A-R]

Wow well this got out of hand didn't it.

Look I got the answers I came for but I'm not going to sit here and have people pass judgement on me for doing what I did in a bad situation while unaware for the law or paint me in a bad light because they read others comments and jumped on the bandwagon of bashing me. It seems that most of seem to think that I just got cut off or flipped the bird, if so you need to go and re-read what I wrote. I assure you that this was much worse. My fiancee was terrified and for a good 45 seconds I was doing everything I could to dodge drunk drivers and another car intent on harming us. I'm GLAD that most of you have never been in my place, I'm GLAD the worst thing you've seen is a middle finger. Most of the time, that's as bad as it gets. I experience minor incidents weekly in my 400 mile per week drive but these were above and beyond what would be the 'new normal' for roadway behavior. End of story.

Based precisely on a reading of your original post, you were NOT justified in waving a gun or firing a gun in either case. This has nothing to do with a misunderstanding other than your obvious misunderstanding of the law. YOU WERE NOT JUSTIFIED! Get that through your head. If you want to know why you weren't justified, read all of the previous posts. Doesn't matter how scared you or girlfriend were, in the situations you described you were not justified in threatening or using deadly force with a firearm. Period. End of story.

Sure, I do enjoy debating issues but that doesn't mean I'm discounting the information or the sources. Aren't public forums for debating?

No, they're for discussing and learning. Debates happen from time to time. But most people figure it out when the overwhelming majority of those who reply to their OPs, many of whom work in law enforcement and deal with these issues on a daily basis, tell them they are wrong.

So let me propose this question: what would a cop do if someone did to them what was done to me? Why is the protocol different just because I'm a civilian? What if you were walking down the street and someone tried to run you over could you draw on them? Why or why not?

YOU'RE NOT A COP! So your whole question is ludicrous. But a cop would NOT shoot from his moving vehicle at another moving vehicle except in the most extreme circumstances and then only if there were no other cars or innocents around who could get hurt. Don't believe me, ask the police officers on this forum. Protocol is different because police have a duty to protect and serve, power to arrest etc. that YOU DON"T HAVE. This is why you CALL THE POLICE in extreme situations.

Here's what happens when a police officer is actually FIRED UPON while in his car (not just some other car swerving in his direction) .... the police officer CALLS THE POLICE - which is what you should've done in both cases " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; EDITED TO ADD WARNING OF A FEW CHOICE WORDS THE OFFICER MAKES WHEN BULLETS START FLYING - not appropriate words for a 9-year-old.

As for walking down the street and car comes toward you, totally different scenario than your OP. But my first reaction is GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!! Not shoot. If there is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide (did I just break copyright rule - Ithink that's a song lyric ) then you're likely justified in shooting, but there's a good chance you'll still be run over and killed. So my advice agani is GET OUT OF THE WAY!!

[esxmarkc]

So let me propose this question: what would a cop do if someone did to them what was done to me?

I got a hundred bucks that says you won't see his gun while you are both moving down the freeway no matter how aggressively you drive. You can watch stupid car chases go on for hours on the freeway and you won't see a single cop waving a gun out a window.

Why is the protocol different just because I'm a civilian?

It isn't hardly any different. You should follow the same protocol. Keep it concealed until there is a direct eminent threat. You think that you are in real danger traveling at speed down the freeway? Then pull over and stop. Not likely to get in a crash when you stop. If he stops and corners you and exits his vehicle and approaches your vehicle things change. If he then presents a weapon all bets are off.

What if you were walking down the street and someone tried to run you over could you draw on them? Why or why not?

You really think a bullet is going to stop a 3000lb vehicle? Who has been watching too much Walker Texas Ranger now? You'd better jump your rear out the way. And once the vehicle passes and as long as it keeps going - threat has passed - episode over - no gun required.

I assure you that this was much worse. My fiancee was terrified and for a good 45 seconds I was doing everything I could to dodge drunk drivers and another car intent on harming us.

Everything except pull over and stop. If I was with you and you were driving like that along with another maniac on the road and presenting a weapon I would likely consider jumping out of the vehicle at speed. Kidding of course but you get the point.

My point is this: You let your adrenaline win. You did. Your fiancé flipped out because you were flipping out driving like a maniac and brandishing a gun. You should have remained calm and cool and slowed waaaaaay down and reassured her that you are not letting anyone get hurt. Give her something to do: "Here darlin, take this phone and call 911 and get his plate number while I slow it down". You should have been in total defuse mode - calm and cool and controlled. Don't let anger or testosterone or adrenaline win over and you will make the proper decisions.

ETA: Hey I'm 50 now and as an old fart I can promise I let my anger/testosterone/adrenaline get the best of me on several occasions - got scars to prove it.. It happens. Live and learn. Although you actions got you out of that jam they may not have been the best possible actions.

Living through such an event so you can reflect and learn is priceless. If you want to debate your actions then you are not likely to ever see anything wrong in the way you acted and hence may miss out on the learning experience.

Best of luck.

[JayCee]

I'm over this. I found out what I wanted to know, agree with it or not. Here's a big thank you to the ones that took the time to give an honest and reasonable response. To the rest: meh...I should probably know better by now how these places work.

A mod should come in and clean up all this back forth bull and just keep the pertinant info.

[JayCee]

you were flipping out driving like a maniac and brandishing a gun.

See, this is what gets me and I think is a huge source of what caused this to get so out of control. No where did I allude to driving like a maniac and waving a gun. It sounds like you and many others simply grazed over my OP, formed your own conclusions and then got them reinforced by the responding commenters. I didnt even have a gun and all I did was try to evade. BTW I'm not sure how many of you have been in heavy traffic at night but in the few seconds it took for this thing to transpire I had no where to pull over and who's to say that would have been the safest thing anyway? I was having a hard enough time dodging a psycho and trying to keep him from pulling beside me. Sometimes it's just not that easy guys, try and understand that. I'd love to put some of you guys in the same boat and see how well you respond.

In the second scenario I was being chased from one side of the hwy to another with a 4000# truck inches from my bumper. That stretch of hwy has a barricade on one side and a HOV lane on the other and the next exit was a couple miles down. I did my best to avoid getting hit from behind and in an instant I chose poorly and pulled a gun. I didn't point it, didn't fire it...just pulled it out and placed it on my seat so if I do end up in a wreck and he comes to finish the job I have a weapon ready. Was it legal? No, and all I was looking for was that answer. Personally I take issue with the letter of the law as it pertains to situations like that and hopefully I'll never have to even deal with it.
Do not project your biases and experiences on me and post about what you 'think' happened. You're wrong, plain and simple and if I'm the only one that ever knows that; I'm OK with that.

[VMI77]

I didn't point it, didn't fire it...just pulled it out and placed it on my seat so if I do end up in a wreck and he comes to finish the job I have a weapon ready.

And just where do you think that weapon you put on the seat was going to be after a wreck?

[JayCee]

I didn't point it, didn't fire it...just pulled it out and placed it on my seat so if I do end up in a wreck and he comes to finish the job I have a weapon ready.

And just where do you think that weapon you put on the seat was going to be after a wreck?

Oh great, more of the what-if game. It was a crappy situation and bad choices were made. Moving along...

On one particular occasion I was leaving work and attempting to merge on the Hwy but there was an orange Avalanche that was halfway in the right lane and the merge/exit lane. I gave him a few seconds to either exit or enter the hwy but he stayed there for several seconds and was unaware or too intoxicated to tell what was going on. Well, I had to get on so he needed to move. I honked at him in case he didn't realize what he was doing at which point he swerved at me, looking me dead in the eye. I dropped a gear and sped up (sports car vs truck, duh) to get around him and he began to chase me, tailgating me even as I changed lanes and tried to evade. I could have layed on the gas and lost him eventually but that would have been dangerous for me and other drivers, so since he was so close he could probably read my radio station, I pulled my pistol from the console, cocked it and layed it on the seat in clear view. Fortunately that made him reconsider his course of action and he immediately backed off 10 car lengths.
Now I know and feel that I did the right thing since calling 911 while trying to evade some crazy redneck would have put me at greater risk (and accomplished nothing) than simply displaying the fact that I can make this altercation a lot more serious than some bumpkin with a grudge is willing to take it. The question is, was I right in the eyes of the law?

Another time I was driving with my fiancee and out of nowhere a car passes me on the shoulder doing at least 90 (I drive around 10 over and don't loiter in the left lane, FYI), cuts me off and brake checks me. The car is driven by a big black man and has TVs in the visors; so not to stereotype, but this guy was either gang affiliated or wants people to think he is. I try to avoid him, change lanes and sure enough as soon as he gets a chance he's in front of me again, stomping on his brakes. It's night time but traffic is moving at decent speed but is so thick that theres not a lot of room to manuver so basically we're stuck with a guy in close proximity that apparently wants to cause an accident or worse. At several points the other car was beside us and I had no way of knowing if I or my fiancee were going to be shot in the face. I wasn't carrying my pistol that night (and regretted it ever since). My question is: if I was carrying and those events transpired, would I be justified in shooting the other driver car-to-car? Let me reiterate: there was no backing down or running away given the traffic.
Is it justifable to use a weapon to preempt assault?

...and for all those that might be led to believe that I somehow caused these events with either bad or aggressive driving, just let it go. I'm a very safe and considerate, mature driver and have the record to show for it![/quote]

There, I bolded the parts that people seem to be struggling with.

[Oldgringo]

This thread appears to have come full circle. Isn't it about time to lock this one up...too?

[Hoi Polloi]

...too many episodes of Walker: Texas Ranger...

Sure, I do enjoy debating issues but that doesn't mean I'm discounting the information or the sources. Aren't public forums for debating?

So let me propose this question: what would a cop do if someone did to them what was done to me? Why is the protocol different just because I'm a civilian? What if you were walking down the street and someone tried to run you over could you draw on them? Why or why not?

1. You didn't just insult Chuck Norris, did you? Man, the boogeyman is afraid of Chuck Norris. That's like a death wish! "Take a nap, JayCee."

2. Dialog, discussion, research, and debate. Debate is included, but not exclusive.

3a. He'd call for backup and take evasive maneuvers. I can't imagine an officer ever, ever, ever shooting from his vehicle moving at highway speeds at another vehicle moving at highway speeds, much less on a crowded highway. Any who were dumb enough to do so would be rightly ridiculed and sanctioned. It seems the protocol is quite the same for you, despite LEO having a much larger breadth of experience, knowledge, and legal abilities than civilians.

3b. You were a motorist who was behind the wheel of a deadly weapon and means of escape who was legally obligated to yield to those at your left and to merge behind if necessary and as able. But you revved up your little sports car and cut off a truck who was moving with the flow of traffic and had no obligation to alter his speed or course for you, thus ticking off the truck driver, then you threatened him with the use of deadly force by intentionally displaying a firearm in order to threaten and scare him. There are so many things wrong with this scenario on its own (meaning illegal acts by you creating and escalating the conflict) that comparing it to an innocent civilian wandering down the street and having a motorist try to run the person over for no reason is a disingenuous comparison at best.

[TxA]

Well, I had to get on so he needed to move.

Here's something that's been bothering me since I first read your OP that hasn't been addressed. Maybe all this could have been avoided by having a different attitude. Before we have the details of the event transpired, your example's beginning has a bad start from my perspective. First, you didn't NEED to get on the highway, although you may have wanted to get on. Second, he didn't NEED to move. You may have wanted him to let you on/in, but that's something else all together. A different approach/attitude from the start might have had entirely different results.

Sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it and how it's perceived that generates a particular response, either good or bad.

To answer your orginal question in a straight forward manner, might not have given you the answer that you NEEDED. Sometimes you need to address the root problem and not just a symptom of a bigger issue.

I'm reminded of my grandfather telling to me, you sure can catch a lot more fly with honey than vinagar...

I'm over this. I found out what I wanted to know, agree with it or not.

Also, please remember that a forum is a give and take environment. We must be willing to spend time and help others if we plan to gain help ourselves...

[JayCee]

3b. You were a motorist who was behind the wheel of a deadly weapon and means of escape who was legally obligated to yield to those at your left and to merge behind if necessary and as able. But you revved up your little sports car and cut off a truck who was moving with the flow of traffic and had no obligation to alter his speed or course for you, thus ticking off the truck driver, then you threatened him with the use of deadly force by intentionally displaying a firearm in order to threaten and scare him. There are so many things wrong with this scenario on its own (meaning illegal acts by you creating and escalating the conflict) that comparing it to an innocent civilian wandering down the street and having a motorist try to run the person over for no reason is a disingenuous comparison at best.

Again, you have to give some benefit of doubt for the sake of discussion. This guy was straddling 2 lanes and holding up traffic in both lanes as a result, I had a car on my bumper as did the truck so there was no room to go anywhere and I was running out of lane. I wasn't the only one that honked at him either. Trust me, I'll always take the safer option and that was to go around him. He got irritated because he got honked at and decided to take it too far. Again, when he say my pistol the whole thing evaported so how exactly did I cause it to escalate?
If you can read and understand all that and STILL find me in the wrong then we're simply on different worlds.

So wait, now we're anti-honkling now? So I'm in the wrong for honking at someone to bring attention to the fact they're in 2 lanes!?!? Wow, off our meds are we? This is getting ridiculous...

[Keith B]

OK folks. This has gone far enough and moving toward personal attacks. Tone it down and discuss civilly or it WILL be locked.

[bdickens]

You're planning on getting banned, aren't you?

[terryg]

You're planning on getting banned, aren't you?

Yeah, I feel somewhat ashamed that I stuck up for him a little in the other thread. I do think that our forum can be quick to label new people sometimes and, IMO, that helped escalate the tone in this case. But it seems that he had a date with inevitability and intends on making it - one way or the other.

[jimlongley]

I pulled my pistol from the console, cocked it and layed it on the seat in clear view. Fortunately that made him reconsider his course of action and he immediately backed off 10 car lengths.
Now I know and feel that I did the right thing since calling 911 while trying to evade some crazy redneck would have put me at greater risk (and accomplished nothing) than simply displaying the fact that I can make this altercation a lot more serious than some bumpkin with a grudge is willing to take it. The question is, was I right in the eyes of the law?

As has been pointed out, numerous times, although you seem inclined to argue with it and make insulting comments about the people answering, IN THE EYES OF THE LAW you were wrong, and as I pointed out in the post you insulted me about, you are lucky the Avalanche driver didn't call 911 on you, or maybe he did.

Between that and your acknowledged predilection for breaking the law yourself (ref your statement that you always drive 10 over), the eyes of the law might be staring at you very hard.