When Your Plastic is Approved but Not in Hand.

[SMOOTHboar]

Recently, on a trip across the state of Texas traveling to Colorado across New Mexico, I was pulled over by a Highway Patrolman. I was doing a touch over the limit and he got me. He asked for the usuals and I gave him my license and insurance. He then went back to his patrol car and ran my license. I was polite, respectful, turned on the overhead light, kept my hands on the stearing wheel, and was not in any way out of line.

He anounced, " Mr. Smith get out of the car. Slowly!" With his hand on the butt of his firearm. He ordered me to come stand at the rear of the car, pointing to the exact spot I should stand. The LEO inquired if there was anything that I wanted to "give him". I replied no. He then (in a very authoritative voice) asked why I was refusing to give him my CHL?

I then exclaimed that I did not have it in hand, that I was not yet aware that it had been printed, and that he just gave me very good news. The entire time he stood with his hand a top his firearm. Made me very nervous. I tried to loosen him up by my attitude, posture, tone, and eye contact. Making a point to stand in a balanced yet no threatening way as I was about 5 inches taller and about 100 lb's heavier.

He asked if I had a gun. I said yes. And promptly added that it was in the car.

He wanted to know the particulars about. So I shared everything about the gun with him. He went to the car and came back after about 20 min. He told me that the card had printed at midnight and that it would be best If I told any other officers that I was transporting a fire arm and that I had a CHL that was printed today and it was in the mail but not in hand. He told me that it isn't wise to carry in the car. Also, I should not have any bullets in the gun let alone one in the chamber. On and on he went about the nature of how I was to handle and store a gun. I kept nodding and smiling. Adding thanks for the information officer and I have considered that, but I'll give it more attention now.

He then wrote me a ticket. I think he wrote me the ticket because I did not tell him that I had a gun in the car. He wrote it for the MAX and ended it with next time tell the officer you have weapon in the car.

So... I thought that any person could legally keep a firearm loaded in a car and not have tell the LEO of its presence. Why would the fact that I had applied for a CHL and not yet recieved the issued card make it any different for me?

[seamusTX]

You ran into a "Catch-22' that I mistakenly thought would be rare. It has been reported by several members of this forum now.

Apparently the DPS computer system gets your CHL status as soon as your application is approved, a week or more before you receive your license.

Some officers do not like the fact that the unwashed masses can now carry a handgun in a vehicle without a CHL or other prior government approval. It is just one of those those things.

- Jim

[Cobra Medic]

So... I thought that any person could legally keep a firearm loaded in a car and not have tell the LEO of its presence.

If you're not a criminal and not comitting a crime, the Motorist Protection Act allows you to carry a concealed handgun in your motor vehicle. The law doesn't differentiate between loaded and unloaded, but a loaded gun is more useful.

Why would the fact that I had applied for a CHL and not yet recieved the issued card make it any different for me?

Ignorance. Intolerance. Take your pick.

[RPB]

WOW, so now you 've let it leak out how to get express notification service.
Now everyone will be doing it.
"He told me that the card had printed at midnight"


Above are correct "Motorist Protection Act" Sec. 46.02 ...for your gun. Also the Penal Code 46.15 might even apply if travelling, (though I don't know why one might need to prove travelling, since 46.02 allows carrying concealed in the car)
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(2) is traveling;

I agree "a loaded gun is more useful"

ARE you taking Deferred Adjudication? (many judges call it something different, but they'll know what you mean)
It saves your Defensive Driving until you get another ticket if you expect another in the next few years.
You can still take defensive driving to lower insurance rates, but can honestly tell a judge next time you get a ticket that haven't taken it "to get rid of a ticket in the last x years."
Either way, it shouldn't show up as a conviction which would raise your insurance rates.

My ex-boss's wife was going through some town and not coming back through for months, the judge gave her 24 hour Deferred Adjudication, so she had to be careful not to get another ticket the next 24 hours and pay the fine and he'd dismiss it.... when I did that, judge said 90 days deferred, that's more normal.

[Mike1951]

The trooper's statements do seem to indicate infamiliarity with the MPA.

However, I share the opinion of some that you don't get to pick MPA or CHL, whichever is more convenient. It is my opinion that when your CHL is issued, MPA goes out the window, even if the firearm is being transported in a manner allowed by MPA. Say you typically carry one in the console, but one day you have left your CHL on the dresser. If you get stopped, don't expect to convince the officer that you were carrying under the MPA, so your license wasn't required.

The OP's situation would best be addressed by more information displayed in response to queries, such as 'Approved-pending receipt', 'Mailed to recipient on 00/00/0000', or something to convey it may not yet be in possession. This would not require legislation, as it is just procedure.

This warrants a discussion with the DPS department head that has corrected other processing issues.

[C-dub]

Is this something that could be fixed? Could the state not "activate" the license until the licensee responds that he/she has received the license with the password provided earlier to check the status online?

[seamusTX]

Sure, but so someone gets a lecture from an officious, misinformed cop. It hardly creates a ripple in the space-time continuum.

- Jim

[JDJ]

It is my understanding that If there is a handgun in the car, it must be concealed(weather you have a permit or not) and you must (by law) inform the officer when he stops you. In Texas of course.

If I am mistaken can someone post a link to inform me?

[hheremtp]

It is my understanding that If there is a handgun in the car, it must be concealed(weather you have a permit or not) and you must (by law) inform the officer when he stops you. In Texas of course.

If I am mistaken can someone post a link to inform me?

Under the mpa there is no requirement to disclose the weapon to the officer. Under the chl law there is the requirement.

[cbr600]

deleted

[hheremtp]

It is my understanding that If there is a handgun in the car, it must be concealed(weather you have a permit or not) and you must (by law) inform the officer when he stops you. In Texas of course.

If I am mistaken can someone post a link to inform me?

Here's the link. http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.46.htm

Please show me where someone has to notify the police they have a gun.

From the CHL handbook pg 28
GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. (a) If a license
holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's
person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license
holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license.

From the CHL handbook pg 38
PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries
on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the
person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's
control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned
by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly,
or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a
motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's
control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor
that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section
71.01.


The first sections applies to CHL holders and specifically directs the person to display the license if armed. The second section is from the mpa, notice it says nothing about the requirement to inform the officer about the presence of a weapon.

[cbr600]

deleted

[hheremtp]

The first sections applies to CHL holders and specifically directs the person to display the license if armed. The second section is from the mpa, notice it says nothing about the requirement to inform the officer about the presence of a weapon.

Exactly. There is a requirement for a licensee to display the CHL. However, I can't find any requirement for CHL/MPA/LEO/MOUSE to notify anyone they have a handgun or MP3 player in their car.

By displaying your license to a LEO when armed you are in effect telling that leo that you have a weapon with you. That is why you are only required to show the license when armed.

[LarryH]

The first sections applies to CHL holders and specifically directs the person to display the license if armed. The second section is from the mpa, notice it says nothing about the requirement to inform the officer about the presence of a weapon.

Exactly. There is a requirement for a licensee to display the CHL. However, I can't find any requirement for CHL/MPA/LEO/MOUSE to notify anyone they have a handgun or MP3 player in their car.

By displaying your license to a LEO when armed you are in effect telling that leo that you have a weapon with you. That is why you are only required to show the license when armed.

This statement is true as it stands. However, when the LEO runs your driver's license, he will know that you have a CHL. He may then wonder why you didn't disclose that information from the beginning and what else you are "hiding". I'm not saying he'd be justified in those thoughts, but . . .

More than a few members of this forum have said that they present both driver's license and CHL, whether carrying or not, as a courtesy to the LEO. That's what I did when stopped back in April (see my "Passing a school bus" thread for details).

[jimlongley]

I don't know how the trooper could have known that the "card had printed at midnight" but the rest of the tale is familiar.

I was traveling up 75 in Plano Texas at about 0200, and as I pulled off at my exit I could see blue and reds lit up way down the road, and nearer there were carss off the road with their lights off. As I passed the unlit cars, one of them pulled out of the grass and started following me, and then he lit me up.

I pulled over and stopped and turned on the overhead light. The young Plano police officer who approached was, I think, sure he had caught me trying to go around the drunk sweep, and was equally sure I had been drinking, and violated one of the cardinal rules of traffic stops by putting body parts into the car, in this case his head as he tried, vainly, to sniff my breath.

I turned over my license and registration and insurance, and away he went to his car. He came back and asked me if I was "packing" and my first response was to wonder how he knew that I was to travel later that day, and I remained somewhat confused until he finally made it clear that he wanted to know if I was carrying a gun. I told him no, that I did not have a CHL (MPA did not exist yet) and he told me that according to their records I did.

He gave me a warning for license plate light out, and my plastic arrived in the mail that day.