To CHL or not to CHL

[CJATE]

I got my CHL at 21, and did not carry daily until 28,

Got it to avoid hassle back and froth from range, and to keep it in the truck, no wait on purchase was a plus. . . one day I was comfortable with it, and now I carry.

[dannysdad]

I had the same lack of urgency. I have lived my entire life without needing to shoot anybody, and half of it in a tough neighborhood. But look at it this way: The initial $250 or so for the class and application fee works out to about 14 cents a day over five years. After that, the cost is cut in half. Is that too much of a tax to pay for your right to bear arms?

- Jim

"Paying" for "Rights" sounds strange to me.

[seamusTX]

That's the reality of the situation.

- Jim

[The Annoyed Man]

I had the same lack of urgency. I have lived my entire life without needing to shoot anybody, and half of it in a tough neighborhood. But look at it this way: The initial $250 or so for the class and application fee works out to about 14 cents a day over five years. After that, the cost is cut in half. Is that too much of a tax to pay for your right to bear arms?

- Jim

"Paying" for "Rights" sounds strange to me.

Agreed, but like Jim said, that's the reality of the situation. In my previous post, I mentioned having to register to vote, and yet, for citizens, voting is a right. I firmly believe that the only reason we aren't required to pay for voter registration is that poll taxes seem to have been judged unconstitutional. So with that as a background, it doesn't seem right to have to pay to exercise our RKBA, even if we are currently required to apply for the license.

I'm ashamed to say that I don't know enough about our early history to know if citizens of the late 18th century, say between 1776 and 1789 (I think) when the Bill of Rights was ratified, were required to actually register in order to vote. In any case, the nation's population was so small that local voters might have well known each other, and local poll workers might well have been on a familiar basis with those voters, so the legitimacy of their right to vote was most likely not subject to challenge. On the other hand, we have approximately 300 million people in this country now, approximately 20 million of whom are here illegally and have no legal right to vote, not to mention the other umpty ump millions who are legal alien residents who also have no legal right to vote. It is probably safe to say that upwards of 10% of the current population may not legally vote. Consequently, from a purely practical perspective, there has to be some way or other to distinguish those who have a lawful right to vote from those who don't, hence the need for voter registration. That issue by itself raises a host of other issues, such as the ongoing debate over national identity cards, etc., which, by the way, makes me very uncomfortable.

But my point is that A) while my right to vote appears to be regulated by the registration requirement, B) I still don't have to pay a poll tax in order to exercise that right. Therefore, while the national debate rages on about whether or not any of us ought to have a RKBA in the first place, and although the state authorities have deemed it necessary to regulate my ability to carry, I don't think it should cost a penny in fees, anymore than my right to vote.

But that's just me.

[seamusTX]

Well, I agree with you. Texas has the most expensive license and the most difficult to obtain of the shall-issue state, as far as I know.

But you have to get 76 representatives, 16 senators, the lieutenant governor, and the governor to agree. I think it's unlikely.

- Jim

[Venus Pax]

Well, I agree with you. Texas has the most expensive license and the most difficult to obtain of the shall-issue state, as far as I know.

But you have to get 76 representatives, 16 senators, the lieutenant governor, and the governor to agree. I think it's unlikely.

- Jim

When Mars & I were first married and in college, we lived below the poverty line. Paying for any type of course or licensing fees at that time was out of the question. And we lived in some rather rough places. (At one apartment complex, we regularly smelled marajuana coming through the air vents, and saw some rather interesting transactions occurring in the parking lot.)

I would LOVE to see the fees go down. I don't see the reason why it should cost so much.

To answer the OP, I now live in a "nice" area and have NO regrets about getting my CHL. I carry everywhere I legally can. In spite of the costs associated with it, I think it was worth the money spent. My husband was in an accident in January. Upon his release, I was required to take him to doctors' appointments in downtown Houston. I was VERY glad that I already had the CHL. Walking through parking garages while pushing a person in a wheelchair can make one feel rather vulnerable, but having the right and the ability to fight back is something worth keeping.

[kd5zex]

To be honest, the first time I questioned myself on the subject was on the way home from my class. I suppose I had never fully considered the ramifications of exercising the right. I am waiting for the plastic now but have been "practicing" around the house and now am glad that I spent the money and will be able to protect myself and my family should I deem necessary. But always remember, your brain is the first tool you should use in any situation.

Cheers,

kd5zex

[The Annoyed Man]

In spite of the costs associated with it, I think it was worth the money spent.

Given the reality of being required to pay for it, I agree with you. It was money well spent; and I would pay it again if I had to. I just don't think we ought to have to pay more than what we pay for a driver's license (which isn't a constitutionally protected right), if we should even have to pay anything at all. That's what taxes are for.

[mr.72]

Well of course this debate rages on.

First of all, we cannot talk about the right to vote compared to the right to bear arms, because the right to vote is not enumerated in the Bill of Rights. This makes sense considering the fact that our government system is not a democracy anyway, so therefore the right or necessity of the vote is not laid out.

So disregarding the right to vote, there are 8 amendments in the Bill of Rights that can be evaluated with comparison to the right to keep and bear arms:

* First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
* Second Amendment – Right to keep and bear arms.
* Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
* Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
* Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
* Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
* Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
* Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.

So we are made to think it is reasonable that in order for us to exercise our right to keep and bear arms, we must submit to a government-mandated 8 hour training regimen on how to keep and bear arms, and then we must submit to a 2 hour practical qualification evaluating our skill at keeping and bearing arms, and we are liable to pay for this training and qualification. Then we must pay the government a $140 fee and then wait up to 6 months before we receive a license to keep and bear arms, and then we have to pay to renew this license as well as submit to recurring qualification every 5 years or so.

Now, is there ANY other right enumerated in the Bill of Rights that any other American in their right mind would consider it reasonable to restrict in this fashion?

For example, let's say that you are driving down the road and the police pull you over and arrest you for something you certainly did not do. Then they just lock you up in jail and throw away the key "Mexican" style. You of course complain, you have rights! The sixth amendment guarantees your right to a trial by jury and to counsel, not to mention the fourth, fifth and eighth amendments. But then they inform you, "you do not have a license for your right to a trial by jury and counsel. You don't have a license for those rights. You have to take a class, pay the instructor, take a qualification exam, and register with the state for $140 for each of these rights, otherwise you will just rot in jail! tough luck!".

No, nobody would tolerate this for ANY other right in the Bill of Rights and in fact they would not tolerate it for any other "right" in any other amendment of the constitution including the right to vote.

Not only that, they would not even tolerate it for some things that are not exactly universally heralded as "good things", such as smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, going to strip clubs, owning pornography, etc. Imagine if they made it illegal to consume alcohol, except in your own home, unless you submit to CHL-style training class, qualification, fees and licensing? Everyone would freak! But nowhere in the Bill of Rights or anywhere else in the Constitution is there any guarantee of your "right" to consume alcohol. Same for any of these other "rights". Imposing the requirements we accept for CHL on any of these other "freedoms" would cause an uprising that makes the American Revolution look like a non-Boston tea party.

Of course I am preaching to the choir here, and t doesn't make one lick of difference because somehow, virtually all Americans, even those in "cowboy"states like Texas and Arizona have bought this line that only the government should be allowed to possess functional arms without a license. This is not liberty, this is not safety. It's ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that it seems that 50% of the US states that do this right happens to be Vermont... not exactly a bastion of freedom and liberty.

I guess I'll get off my soap box now. Infuriating as it is. It's unfathomable that we have allowed our country to get into this condition in the first place. I wonder which rights we will give up next? My guess is freedom of religion is the next to go, but if we are unwilling to stand up for those rights that are there for our own defense, then we have given up on the fight.

[seamusTX]

I want to reply to two points above:

1. I am on record as saying that possession of a weapon should never be an offense in its own right. Criminal use of a weapons should be, of course; and people who have demonstrated that they are a danger to others should be confined until such time as they may be reasonably considered rehabilitated. In short, "any gun anywhere."

Situations like airline travel are easily taken care of by conditions of passage. If you want to travel on a plane, the airline will not allow you to transport a jug of gasoline or a tiger in the passenger compartment, and the same goes for weapons.

That is background to what I am going to say next.

We got to where we are because of two principles that invariably result in trouble:

• The desire to control dangerous things and dangerous people.
• It seemed like a good idea at the time.

I was a teenager in 1968, and I honestly have to say that after having three national leaders assassinated in the previous five years, two that year, three years of widespread riots, and acts of terrorism (Weathermen and the rest), "gun control" seemed like a good idea. I have since repented.

I do not tolerate the situation. I donate to the NRA and TSRA. I vote my beliefs. I write to my representatives, and I write letters to the editor.

Remarkable progress has been made in the last 20 years, most of it due to the efforts of people who work much harder at it than I do, for which I give them credit.

Meanwhile, I obey the law, because the consequences of failing to do so are ending up like Vicky or Randy Weaver, along with the consequences for my family.

2. The Constitution and Bill of Rights enumerate certain rights, such as the right to keep and bear arms. These right were considered important because they were frequently violated by governments, including some state governments before 1787.

However, all the unenumerated rights, such as the right to marry, have children, work, enter into contracts, and travel are protected by the ninth amendment:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people,

The right to vote is a special case. It was not explicity protected by the original constitution, and voter qualifications varied by state. It was subsequently protected by the 15th, 19th, and 26th amendments, various Supreme Court decisions, and voting rights acts (which have proven politically impossible to repeal or let lapse).

- Jim

[Liko81]

Thanks for your reply. I will take the class this Saturday and then carry when I feel up to it (and comfortable).

Just remember the class itself is not enough for carry; you have to file the paperwork and get the plastic too. Just making sure that was clear.

[dukesean]

It was money well spent; and I would pay it again if I had to. I just don't think we ought to have to pay more than what we pay for a driver's license (which isn't a constitutionally protected right), if we should even have to pay anything at all. That's what taxes are for.

Couldn't agree with you more TAM. I mean, why does it cost $25 for a change of address on our CHLs but only $10 for our driver license? I can understand part of the original license, since you have to pay for background checks etc, but the disparity is too much I think

[snakeshot]

To CHL or not to CHL???

I have spent my whole life around firearms, and love to hunt, shoot, reload. I always thought it would be nice to get my CHL, but always put it off. What finally kicked me over the edge and finally do it was something a couple of NRA recruiters told me at a gun show I visited the end of this last year. They asked me if I was a member of the NRA? and I said yes. They then asked me did I have my CHL? I told them I had always meant to, but just never had ever got around to do it. They told me something very simple that made me think. They said everybody who qualifies to have a CHL should have one.
They of course were CHL instructors, and they were trying to get people to sign up for their class, but the more I thought about, it the more it made sense.
I made it my new years resolution.
This last Saturday, June 14th, mine came in the mail.

Just do it. It is much easier than losing weight.

snakeshot

[KC5AV]

To CHL or not to CHL???

Just do it. It is much easier than losing weight.

snakeshot

I did both.