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Well it is always fun to discuss firearms pro's and con's so I thought I'd get this topic going.

I am going to pick up another 9mm for range use and competition (IDPA). I have no intention of carrying this gun, so carry considerations are not applicable. Going into the discussion, I am preliminarily thinking either a Glock 34 or a S&W M&P Pro 9L, but am willing to discuss other options.

The attributes that matter to me are:

1. Reliability. Will fire and cycle every time. Period. I don't want to practice malfunction drills during a match.
2. Accuracy. I want a gun that is more accurate than I am (and I'm a pretty good shot). This isn't a 7 yard gun, I enjoy shooting 25-50 yards. Who knows, I may want to try Bianchi Cup style competition someday.
3. Trigger. I am not a fan of traditional DA/SA triggers, where the first shot has a different trigger feel than subsequent shots. I want a DAO trigger under 5 lbs, like you'd see with either of the above guns with an aftermarket connector. I am looking for relatively short travel with a crisp break and positive reset. My normal everyday carry gun is a 1911, so I am familiar with that trigger and it is not what I am looking for.
4. Sights. I'll put some kind of high visibility, probably fiber optic, sights on it. Obviously, Glock and M&P's have a bunch of aftermarket sight choices, but if you are introducing a different brand, things like aftermarket sight availability become pertinent.
5. IDPA SSP. I want to compete in SSP (Stock Service Pistol) class. This rules out the SA XD series, as they are classified as ESP since they are technically single action triggers.

Looking at the equipment survey for the most recent IDPA Nationals is interesting, if you subscribe to the theory "let's see what is working for other people." This is from the IDPA 4th Quarter 2012 Tactical Journal:

(19) Glock 17
( 4) Glock 19
(71) Glock 34
Total Glock - 108

(20) M&P 9
( 3) M&P 9L
(33) M&P Pro 9
Total S&W - 102

The next most popular handgun models were:

(7) Wilson Combat CQB
(5) XDm
(5) XDm 5.25

No other individual model had as many as 5. Looking at the totals by manufacturer, Springfield Armory in total had 25, Kimber 14, STI 13, and Wilson Combat 13. No other manufacturer exceeded 5.

I am considering Glock because I've known too many people who simply rave about their reliability. Concerns for me are the grip angle and the rare times when I've tried stock Glock triggers they just feel mushy to me. In fairness, I haven't actually shot a Glock in over 5 years (Maybe that's my sign . . . ).

I am considering S&W M&P because when I am not carrying my 1911, I am carrying an M&P. I really like my current M&P and shoot it well. Grip angle would be consistent with my carry guns.

Concerns for me are I've read some online discussions that said S&W made some inline manufacturing changes that made the Pro 9L more reliable, but it is now less accurate. I've read of people complaining about 4"-6"-8" groups at 25 yards. That would drive me crazy. (Edited to add: I have no idea if this is internet rumor or has any truth to it.)

So, let's have at it. You know what they say about opinions -- we all have one.

Jumping Frog wrote: (19) Glock 17
( 4) Glock 19
(71) Glock 34
Total Glock - 108

(20) M&P 9
( 3) M&P 9L
(33) M&P Pro 9
Total S&W - 102

I'm only counting 94 Glocks and 56 S&Ws.

Simple: shoot the one YOU shoot best

/thread

Well, as for the lack of accuracy in the M&P Pro, I can tell you that I've been fighting with one this afternoon...I didn't shoot it much, but watched a friend shoot it, and he was making patterns off and on with it...not groups.

BUT...we were working on other "shooter-trouble-trouble-shooting" issues....That said, the gun is dead-nuts reliable. I'm having some issues getting the trigger it should be on the Pro...same work, same kit, etc. I put on his M&P standard model, leaves us with a mushy almost indeclinable reset on the Pro model...I put the factory reset plunger back in it with the Apex spring, and it's better...

But I digress. I'd say there's some at least minor changes in the M&P Pro new stock guns...but not enough to rule them out, and they work well, shoot well, and to me have a grip angle more congruent with my 1911...at least I don't tend to point them high or low like I do my Glocks.

That said, the Glock 34 with its factory 3.5# connector (and even lighter with a reduced-power striker spring) is never the wrong answer for a competition gun....and I've put the 5# connector into a gun with the reduced power upper for a REALLY sweet break and a very distinct reset without too strong a pull (probably works out to about 4.5# or so)....so there's plenty of tricks you can do to a competition gun's trigger...most of which you could swap between stages if you really wanted to try different stuff

With either one, get setup with a Warren rear sight, and a (Pick your poison) fiber front, and you're good to go for a match gun. I think the mag well is a tad easier to hit on the Glock than the M&P, BUT, you can more reliably drop the slide with your mag-insertion on the M&P, so speed-wise that's a wash.

Perhaps you should have one of each?

Kinda boils down to the classic Chevy - Ford debate. I don't normally follow the crowd but there is a lot to be said about popularity. If they don't work, nobody would be using them. I have 3 Glock 34s. One Gen 3 and the other two are Gen 4s, which I like better. They are all extremely reliable with almost zero problems with all my reloads. I put a mag well on one Gen 4 and use it in ESP and the other is my SSP gun. To keep everything the same I put a Dawson red fiber front sight on all of them and left the factory rear sight but painted it flat black as I think the white outline is distracting, but that's me. I put identical competition springs kits in the Gen 4s (from the Glock store) and both have about a 3.2 pound break. Be careful changing the striker spring as I had some light primer hits so I went back to the factory springs. Maybe with softer primers they'd work better.

I'm far from a pro but that's my 2 cents.

To be honest, you have picked out hands down the two best SSP firearms. The both have an extremely high grip that puts the barrel almost in line with your strong hand. I am classified SSP expert and I compete and SO at least once a week with my M&P. I compete in several sanctioned matches a year. Even though I use the Smith, the analysis below is an objective one. I'll go through your 5 points one at a time.

1) Dependability: TIE I have put over 10k rounds through my M&P9 pro, and can count on one hand the number of malfunctions I have had. The most common problem I have seen folks have is allowing the seating of the magazine to drop the slide for them. If this is done too hard, the gun fails to strip off a round. If you have practiced this technique, and do it consistantly, you will not have this issue and save about .05 seconds over the glock. Glock 34, I do not own one, but I have been the SO observing thousands of rounds being fired from them and malfunctions are extremely rare. They do happen, but they are rare. Both guns run outstanding even when they have not been cleaned. I have gone close to 2k rounds without a cleaning with no issues.

2) Accuracy: TIE Despite what some folks have said, the M&P is a very accurate gun. When I was taking Gordon Carrell's class, we had to engage a steel at 122 yards. I was tied with another SSP Expert in the contest. We both hit the steel 8/10, standing shooting freestyle. I was shooting my M&P, he had a Glock 34. Anecdotal, but a good demonstration that both guns are normaly more accurate than their users.

3) Trigger: Qualified edge to the M&P Pro This edge only applies to the factory triggers. I am only referring to the Pro Series, the trigger on the 9L is spongy with a wimpy reset. The trigger in the pro series is made by the S&W performance center and is a pretty good stock trigger. Mine broke clean at 3.5# with no alterations. The Glock was a little spongier (is that a word) and was the deciding factor, along with grip angle, when I bought my serious competition gun. If your planning on aftermarket triggers, we are back to a tie, if you are looking for an M&P 9L, the edge goes back to the Glock.

4) Sights: Slight edge to the Glock Both the Pro Series and the 34 are available with a fiber optic frount and a blacked out rear. The down side to the M&P is that I have seen the fiber break off during a competition much more with the M&P's than I have with the Glock. With either, you want to carry extra "light sticks" with you.

5) Both of them are SSP

When I was deciding between the two, it really was a close call. If the 34 had been available in the gen 4 at the time, it would have been even closer. If you are planning on an aftermarket trigger, then the choice really comes down to grip angle, availability, what do you like. You will not be disapointed no matter which one you choose. If you look at the guns that finish in the top ten at any match, you will see those two guns dominating the SSP class.

C-dub wrote:

Jumping Frog wrote:(19) Glock 17
( 4) Glock 19
(71) Glock 34
Total Glock - 108

(20) M&P 9
( 3) M&P 9L
(33) M&P Pro 9
Total S&W - 102

I'm only counting 94 Glocks and 56 S&Ws.

There were also .40 & .45 cal guns from both manufacturers included in the manufacturer total, as well as a number of S&W revolvers.

MegaWatt wrote:Kinda boils down to the classic Chevy - Ford debate.

Yep, those discussions are fun too.

canvasbck wrote:3) Trigger: Qualified edge to the M&P Pro This edge only applies to the factory triggers. I am only referring to the Pro Series, the trigger on the 9L is spongy with a wimpy reset.

Anything else different between the PL and the Pro? Sounds like the Pro Series is the better S&W choice.

The other difference is the fiber optic front site. It's standard on the pro series, but not on the 9L

I ordered a G34 gen4 a few days ago for eventual competitive and training use (hopefully after I move to Houston in June). It is back ordered of course but I'm pretty GTs will get it to me. I like the M&P, but the sheer numbers of people running Glocks swayed me. Also - my current duty weapon is a full frame Glock (21sf) so the handling will be familiar. I have an M&P9c that I carry alot, and it is nice, but since coming into the LE world years back, I've been a Glock fan boy. They just work....

Also - with all the threats of bans etc, I think high cap Glock mags will be more numerous than M&P et al. I was lucky enough to get 10 17rd mags and 2 33rd mags ordered with the gun.

I have a XDm 5.25 but I haven't been able to find/make a match

Rangel wrote:I have a XDm 5.25 but I haven't been able to find/make a match

PSC-Range has IDPA's the 4th Saturday of the month.
See the calendar here: http://www.psc-range.com/index.php/calendar18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also note, they take signups starting 1 week ahead, ( I believe they post it on the event registration (http://www.psc-range.com/index.php/event-registration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) 1 week ahead as well, as it is not up there yet for this months)

Teamless wrote:

Rangel wrote:I have a XDm 5.25 but I haven't been able to find/make a match

PSC-Range has IDPA's the 4th Saturday of the month.
See the calendar here: http://www.psc-range.com/index.php/calendar18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also note, they take signups starting 1 week ahead, ( I believe they post it on the event registration (http://www.psc-range.com/index.php/event-registration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) 1 week ahead as well, as it is not up there yet for this months)

Thanks for the link, I have been meaning to make it down to The Arms Room but its just hasnt lined up with my work schedule. Do I need to shoot a classifier for PSC?

Rangel wrote:Thanks for the link, I have been meaning to make it down to The Arms Room but its just hasnt lined up with my work schedule. Do I need to shoot a classifier for PSC?

Nope. Your first match there you'll need to be sure you arrive a bit early and attend a range safety briefing. But it isn't required that you have a valid classification in order to shoot matches there. Info here: http://www.psc-range.com/index.php/idpa-matches.

The only downside to your XDm, which I'm sure you know, is that you can't use it in SSP (Stock Service Pistol); you'll have to shoot ESP (Enhanced Service Pistol).

Skiprr wrote:

Rangel wrote:Thanks for the link, I have been meaning to make it down to The Arms Room but its just hasnt lined up with my work schedule. Do I need to shoot a classifier for PSC?

Nope. Your first match there you'll need to be sure you arrive a bit early and attend a range safety briefing. But it isn't required that you have a valid classification in order to shoot matches there. Info here: http://www.psc-range.com/index.php/idpa-matches.

The only downside to your XDm, which I'm sure you know, is that you can't use it in SSP (Stock Service Pistol); you'll have to shoot ESP (Enhanced Service Pistol).

Why wouldnt the xdm be able to be shot in SSP? not like it really matters to me, I have a trigger job with a overtravel stop so I would have to shoot ESP anyways.

Yeah, I am really ticked off at the libtards.

Now I am walking around with cash in my wallet -- literally -- to buy the S&W M&P Pro 9 CORE.

There isn't a gun to be found, the shelves everywhere are bare.

I've tried ordering the gun and been told no, they didn't want to deal with not knowing when the distributor could get it or what they would charge when it finally was in stock.

I am stuck, stuck, stuck.