TexasCHLforum.com

Berrys had 200 grn RNFB 45acp bullets, so i figured i would get a few and see how they feel compared to the 185 RNHB we use for range time

I use western and accurate #2 or #5 for over ten years. in the newest edition of the Western and accurate loading data it has a few 200 grn in the #2 powder but none are RN, closest one i thought about startign with was the data for the hornaday 200 xtp since it starts at 5.1 grns.

under the #5 powder a rainier 200 grn rn starts at 8.2 grns


when i load the 185 RNHB i use #5 at 9 grns, and the newest load data sheet is a range of 8.8 to 10.3 grns of powder. the 9 grns on the 185 really work well.
so my thinking is to run 10 at 8.2 and not exceed 9.6 any advice is welcome
as a side note, i only have a small amount of #2 left and plenty of #5
thank you

Well, first comparison is the length of the bullet shank, the .452" portion of the bullet that will be engaged by the barrel's rifling. OACL is secondary to that where different bullet shapes might dictate OACL, like say a comparison of a 200 gr. truncated cone flat-point vs a 200 gr. SWC.

The .45 ACP's pressure is on the mild side compared to newer cartridges, or the slightly older 9mm Parabellum, where the modern SAAMI pressure rating for the 9 X 19mm is 35,000 PSI compared to 21,000 PSI for the .45 ACP, or, 19,900 CUP which yields the same pressure max, but in it's different test method. Either are correct.

What I'd recommend is to use the Western .45 ACP data as close as possible. The Lyman Pistol & Revolver III, or the 49th edition manual, which contains the same pistol data, is a very sound back-up, using data for Lyman's cast bullet loads. You won't have to be concerned about exceeding pressure with that method.

I will point out, however, that Western chose not to follow the accepted method for using same weight cast bullet data. Even while jacketed bullets are typically .451" in diameter, you will see some .452" Western plated data where they used a higher charge vs. the smaller diameter jacketed bullet. A good time to remind everyone to use multiple data sources. And no handgunner's library should be without at least 1 Lyman manual. The reason being PRESSURE RATED DATA. Regardless of test method.

For the type of loads that No 2 is recommended for, I don't think you need be as concerned about chargeweights (adhering to the load data) from the data. It's also important to know the uniformity of the charges your powder measure throws. Bulk Density is something worth understanding. It's the weight of the powder in a vessel of a given size, like say 1 cc. No 2's bulk density is .635 grams/cc while No 5's is a good bit higher at .990 grams/cc. There will be times, due to its lower bulk density that No 2 may give the greater case-fill. Both are good choices for .45 ACP where I'd likely segregate them by using No 2 for lighter loads with cast or plated bullets and use No 5 for JHP loads.

In fact, that's nearly exactly to what I do, except that I prefer Ramshot True Blue over AA No 5. If you want to push velocity a bit with JHPs, Ramshot Silhouette is quite capable. And if you want light target loads where a bunch of handloaders in the past used WST with 200 gr. SWCs, or Hodgdon Clays, Ramshot Competition is what I'll be looking into, personally. And I'm talking about a 200 gr. SWC at around 800 FPS.

thanks, its good sounding the issue and getting a sound response. Not real concerned about peak or max load. my 185 and now the 200s will be range rounds for working the fundamentals, i always start at low end on charge, but was having the issue of finding the actual bullet. i have used Berry's since first started loading with one exception of using some cast bullets ( not doing that again) berrys are very consistent in wt and dimensions

berrys website states 1250 fps max velocity and the western powders lists the rainier ( which is closest ) as 1044 fps mx. and yes i have the 49th lyman book, looks like i may want to grab the new one

stick to the big 230 grn slow speed round for other things. it may be slow compared to others but its a fridge when it hits the target

as far as repeatability on powder drops, my dillion is pretty darn dead on, once its tweaked to the right charge, it makes loading FUN , i usually check every load for proper amount then, every tenth load after the first 20 on new setting. slows me down, but it makes for consistent loads.

wife uses a 1911 45 and she knows right away if a load is different, swc are no bueno for the 1911 colt, it simply does not like them. whereas my xd will just about eat any round

thanks again

powerboatr wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 pm thanks, its good sounding the issue and getting a sound response. Not real concerned about peak or max load. my 185 and now the 200s will be range rounds for working the fundamentals, i always start at low end on charge, but was having the issue of finding the actual bullet. i have used Berry's since first started loading with one exception of using some cast bullets ( not doing that again) berrys are very consistent in wt and dimensions

berrys website states 1250 fps max velocity and the western powders lists the rainier ( which is closest ) as 1044 fps mx. and yes i have the 49th lyman book, looks like i may want to grab the new one

stick to the big 230 grn slow speed round for other things. it may be slow compared to others but its a fridge when it hits the target

as far as repeatability on powder drops, my dillion is pretty darn dead on, once its tweaked to the right charge, it makes loading FUN , i usually check every load for proper amount then, every tenth load after the first 20 on new setting. slows me down, but it makes for consistent loads.

wife uses a 1911 45 and she knows right away if a load is different, swc are no bueno for the 1911 colt, it simply does not like them. whereas my xd will just about eat any round

thanks again

You're welcome. Because of the articles I write for them, a good many of my powders come from Western including some of the outstanding Norma rifle powders. It took me a while to get around to No 2, but what I was hoping to do was replace 2 Winchester powders I use for .38, .45 ACP and some light 9 X 19mm target loads. WST is pretty good for pushing 200 gr. SWCs to around 800 FPS, the proverbial bunnyfart load. I'm not sure how W231 gained its reputation as a .45 ACP powder. It really doesn't have the same kind of ability for light cast/polycoated SWC loads like WST, and it's on the weak side in terms of JHP defense loads where powders like Silhouette, No 5 and True Blue are easily capable of and on up to +P. Among those 3, True Blue will have slightly lower velocity at max charges, but none of my defense loads give a 10 round standard deviation above 10 FPS. Not to say that Sil and No 5 can't, it's just easier to find a really accurate and uniform load with True Blue, which really is the most "universal" handgun powder available today. Low pressure cartridges up to the very high pressure rounds like the .454 Casull. True Blue can be used for anything +P like 9 X 19mm, .38 Special and .45 ACP. It has a bit more pressure stability than No 5, and it is really oustanding in .357 Mag fired from 3" and 2 1/2" barrels. With its slightly faster burn rate, your loads will not lose as much velocity from the shorter barrels as compared to slower burning powders. Flash is minimal and accuracy can be really good. Western's closest powder to W231 is actually Ramshot ZIP.

W231 has actually worked better for me for .38 Sp and some 9mm target loads. So far, No 2 is getting that done pretty well. Now it's time to explore more bunnyfart loads in .45 ACP, and I recently added 4# of Ramshot Competition for light .38 and .45 ACP loads. It's their closest powder to WST, and it's coming into its own since Australian Defense Industries, ADI, is no longer supplying Clays to Hodgdon. Its Canadian replacement now sold as Clays, isn't exactly setting the shooting world on fire, and a number of USPSA shooters were using the ADI Clays for minor PF 147 gr. 9mm loads.

The jury is still out as far as No 2 replacing both W231 and WST, but the chances look good, and now I have Competition as a back up. The single handgun powder I have the most of is True Blue and, of course, I use the slower Accurate powders as well. No 7 is what I use for 147 gr. JHPs at 1125 FPS, some .357 Mag. No 9 for some magnum loads and I've been quite impressed by Western's newest, other than TCM, with `11 FS which is essentially a flash suppressed version of W296/H110. TCM has broader applications than just the .22 TCM Rock Island round, but I'm pretty well covered for any application I might use it for. I'd probably even look at 11 FS for the .22 TCM given its propensity to flash like a flamethrower!

Also, I only touched on bulk density. If your Dillon measure throws very uniform charges of No 2, it can do even better with the very dense and fine grained sphericals like True Blue, No 5, 7, 9 and 11 FS. Those are all very dense. Not a lot of folks look at that the way I do, but even with it's relatively low bulk density of .635 grams/cc, No 2 is still a good bit denser than many flake powders. Ramshot Competition is a spherical with an even lower bulk density of .510 grams/cc. But it was made for shotgun originally like Clays and WST. So, high bulk density and very small grains will help with very uniform charge weights.

Almost forgot. While I'm a big fan of Lyman manuals I'd say that if you have the 49th edition, I'd wait until they bring out a Pistol & Revolver IV. The 49th contains all of the handgun data from the P & R III, and while I have not reviewed it and confirmed personally, the Lyman 50th was a bit disappointing for the Lyman faithful that did review it and the handgun data is the same as the 49th/P & R III, except for whatever newer cartridges that have been introduced since the P & R III.

good deal, i started with #7 as we only had the 9mm, and 380. once i messed up and found the 1911 (1967 vintage, unsold it sat in a store since 1967). i decided to go with 5 and 2. I like the 5 as its a good powder for all three calibers.
i have no complaints with my dillion, its almost "me" proof. plus their customer service is off the charts great

thank you again for the info
happy range days

powerboatr wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:39 pm good deal, i started with #7 as we only had the 9mm, and 380. once i messed up and found the 1911 (1967 vintage, unsold it sat in a store since 1967). i decided to go with 5 and 2. I like the 5 as its a good powder for all three calibers.
i have no complaints with my dillion, its almost "me" proof. plus their customer service is off the charts great

thank you again for the info
happy range days

No 5 is certainly a good powder for .45 ACP loads, especially those in the upper half of the performance spectrum. .45 ACP is what No 5 was originally formulated for. I think you have 2 solid choices for .45 ACP. It's a pretty solid performer in 9 x 19mm as well as far as standard pressure loads. No 7 works really well for heavier bullets like 147 gr. in 9mm, and high performance 124s also. But there, I use Silhouette. Great performance and a flash suppressant. I deal for 124 gr. JHP Defense loads.

A while back I bought a 250 count box of these on a whim and have been working up load using HP-38.

Having the Hornady and Lyman manuals and access to the Hodgdon data plus a ton of internet searching it was a chore to figure out a starting load. I ended up picking a load that was around the starting load of the 200 gr cast loads in the Lyman 50th manual and sanity checked this against numerous forum searches. I ended up underloading, not to the point of a squib thankfully but it was weak enough that the slide wouldn't cycle. I did ensure to load one at a time for the first 10 to make sure I wasn't loading a squib.

I'm up to 5.6 gr of HP-38 and the slide cycles reliably but I'm still unhappy with how sooty the cases are coming out.

I know HP-38 load data doesn't translate directly for you but thankfully .45 ACP is pretty forgiving if you start conservatively.

It's been an interesting adventure. By the time I find a load I like for this bullet, I'll have to decide if I want to bother buying anymore.

SQLGeek wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:23 pm A while back I bought a 250 count box of these on a whim and have been working up load using HP-38.

Having the Hornady and Lyman manuals and access to the Hodgdon data plus a ton of internet searching it was a chore to figure out a starting load. I ended up picking a load that was around the starting load of the 200 gr cast loads in the Lyman 50th manual and sanity checked this against numerous forum searches. I ended up underloading, not to the point of a squib thankfully but it was weak enough that the slide wouldn't cycle. I did ensure to load one at a time for the first 10 to make sure I wasn't loading a squib.

I'm up to 5.6 gr of HP-38 and the slide cycles reliably but I'm still unhappy with how sooty the cases are coming out.

I know HP-38 load data doesn't translate directly for you but thankfully .45 ACP is pretty forgiving if you start conservatively.

It's been an interesting adventure. By the time I find a load I like for this bullet, I'll have to decide if I want to bother buying anymore.

You probably know this already, but HP38 and W231 are the same powder and data is interchangeable. The data at Hodgdon's Reloading Center online will confirm that.

I do but thank you for the reinforcement. It's good to hear it from an expert. Anything to keep from kabooming myself is much appreciated.

As an aside, I was looking over the Western data today on their site and noticed they specifically have load data for the exact 200 gr Berry's bullet. I should have picked a Western powder to start with, that would have made this whole exercise much easier!

I am impressed with how many different bullets they have data for in each cartridge.

thank you both for sharing. cleaned the dillion up today, going to start running a few test loads hopefully by friday. its amazing, but every time i get all set to load, something comes up and i get delayed a few days. people think being retired is the super hero bat signal to ask for favors and help move stuff


i am hopeful they work out well enough to order more. Berrys was out of 1k round packs of 185 HBRN ,

update
ran 10 at 8.2 of #5 . went to range yesterday afternoon , all ten went off without a hitch and felt very good compared to the other rounds of 230 and 185 grn bullets,
thanks to all the advice

weird thing was the guy in 2 lanes over that watched me, waayyyyyyyy to much. we spoke and said howdy, but he was way to busy watching me than shooting. so much so that when i retrieved my target i kept eye contact the whole walk down and then back up to the line.