Going against conventional wisdom - a new strategy?

[fickman]

Sometimes we on this board might be guilty of over-thinking things. I've recently been rethinking some of that over-thinking, which I admit is just another form of over-thinking. Still, we've seen several events in the last year that have caused me to reconsider several pieces of conventional wisdom.

I'm not conclusively saying to go against these, but they do warrant a little more thought.

1. Choose common calibers, because you can find them anywhere, they're always available, and in a disaster, they'll still be manufactured.

Several threads have already discussed this. It might be wise emergency preparedness to have one firearm in a less-common caliber. Throughout the ammunition shortage of the last eight months, a 10mm owner wouldn't have noticed anything different. They could've gone to any of the stores near me and bought all the ammo they wanted.

2. After a shooting, never talk to the police, they'll use everything against you. Politely refuse to give a statement and ask for a lawyer.

This might still be good advice, but it would have backfired for George Zimmerman. He didn't have to take the stand in the trial because he gave those six mostly consistent statements to the police. His cooperation helped paint him as less suspicious, especially when the detectives testified. It's come out that he did want to testify in court and his lawyers talked him out of it because 1) the prosecution's case was weak and 2) the state submitted all of his statements. Taking the stand could have been a disaster with those aggressive prosecutors.

3. Stick to the script "I feared for my life." "I shot to stop the threat."

Again referring to the Zimmerman case, the key words are out there and known. They aren't magic words, and if - God forbid - you have to defend yourself with deadly force, looking groomed or rehearsed could backfire.

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For 2 and 3, I think the conventional wisdom is still the way to go, but we must use common sense and avoid perfunctory delivery. In the general public perspective, the good guys trust the cops and work with them because the cops are on their side. I think I would give a quick statement to the police.

Also, if such an event gets pulled into the media machine, expect all of our conversations, hypotheticals, and advice on this forum to end up as part of the prosecution's case against you.

Have any of you noticed your views of these topics shifting even slightly over the last year?

[Tic Tac]

I haven't noticed my attitude changing on those issues but I started carrying more than 10 years ago.

[filmtex]

For me the best use of this board, and some others like it, is the chance to see how others approach problems. You're suggestion that conventional thinking or conventional wisdom might be due for re-consideration is a good one. I'll take your suggestions and mull them over a bit. Good post.

[anygunanywhere]

1. I have handguns in pretty much everything but 10mm. If a good deal comes along that could change but not looking. Got lotsa ammo.

2. Has not changed. Still going to shut up until lawyer present.

3. This statement has always troubled me. "I was in fear of my life" to me is a concept I have never experienced in my 59 years. Having been in a few scrapes before including a sinking submarine with no hydraulics and facing down bad guys at an ATM I do not recall "fearing for my life". I have been focused on the events at the time concentrating on my training and how I was responding. I expect during my after action ponderings my statements will detail what I did and why. I lean towards thinking that to blatantly blurt out "I was skeered for my life". is an emotional outburst and has little to do with why one decides to defend oneself.

Just me.

Anygunanywhere

[Jumping Frog]

My strategy hasn't changed, and I think Zimmerman did himself a disservice by speaking without his attorney.

Massad Ayoob's 5 Critical Things To Do After a Shooting

Although the link provides a description of the thought process, in brief they are:

1. Officer, this man attacked me.
2. I will sign the complaint.
3. Evidence is here.
4. The witnesses are there.
5. Officer, you will have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I have spoken with counsel.

[Jaguar]

My strategy hasn't changed, and I think Zimmerman did himself a disservice by speaking without his attorney.

I believe Mark O'Mara said during closing arguments, had he received a call from Zimmerman the night of the shooting, he would have advised him not to talk to the police.

He may have not been charged at all had he kept quite - instead he gave the prosecutors a windmill to till at; the "wannabe cop."

[AlaskanInTexas]

3. Stick to the script "I feared for my life." "I shot to stop the threat."

Again referring to the Zimmerman case, the key words are out there and known. They aren't magic words, and if - God forbid - you have to defend yourself with deadly force, looking groomed or rehearsed could backfire.

To me, saying "I shot to stop the threat" sounds so contrived, premeditated, and gun nutty that I would never dream of uttering those words. How about "he was attacking me and I thought he was going to kill me, so I had to shoot him to make him stop." Or better yet "I need to see a lawyer before I help you sort this out." I also think the the whole "I will sign the complaint" statement sounds weird, and may be used to paint you as someone who has spent a lot of time contemplating shooting someone.

[Blindref757]

Isn't it normal to think this stuff out BEFORE you even apply for a CHL. I had a friend say to me once, "You are just dying to shoot someone". I guess that was because I had thought it all through before and I was answering his questions with a certain level of competence and without haste. Shooting someone could never be pleasant...even if it was 1000% justified and the perp had a child in his grasp. But if we don't plan for that, there is a high probability that we will screw it up. Carrying with a CHL, from a preparedness standpoint, is really no different than a LEO. I think you have to know what to say and how to say it before it hits the fan. If that comes out as rehearsed, that is still better than it coming out as something that could be used against you.

[AlaskanInTexas]

I think you have to know what to say and how to say it before it hits the fan. If that comes out as rehearsed, that is still better than it coming out as something that could be used against you.

I totally agree. I am just saying that you can plan to phrase things so that they are more natural sounding than "I shot to stop the threat." Of course that is better than "Officer, within the meaning of Penal Code section 9.32(a), I reasonably believed that deadly force was necessary to protect me from the use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force and/or to prevent the imminent commission of robbery."

[Pecos]

This is my first year with CHL ,actually my first month. Ive been around hand guns sense my teens. I have read a lot of CHL manuals & books by Chris Bird & Mass Ayoob. & what fickman you guys posted has been the said in all the information I have been reading. Im going to follow this post & learn something here.
I have learned a lot on this forum. Keep it comming!

[bdickens]

Better to sound rehearsed than experience diarrhea of the mouth and end up unwittingly incriminating yourself.

[goose]

I am also going to vote in favor of sounding rehearsed. Got my first CHL in '99. I want them to know that I have thought long and hard about this topic (as deemed appropriate by my lawyer). I naturally tend to over share, over communicate. I am actively working on reminding myself that it is okay and prudent to keep my mouth shut.

I wouldn't have minded voting for a 10mm either. Thankfully my bank didn't run out and the stores are slowly getting more and more in stock. At some point my local Academy's service desk is going to collapse from all of the lead sitting on it.

[JALLEN]

The main reason is that what you say can be sued against you, but what your lawyer says to the police can not. What the lawyer tells them will be hopefully after getting your version, sorting out the emotional and the confused from the factual, and no risk of an emotional blurting out of something in a way that worsens the situation. If they trick your lawyer, that isn't used against you. "The investigation is ongoing and not all the facts are yet known, etc."

I have not been in the situation but I can imagine that you, in the immediate aftermath of an incident, might be over wrought, maybe a bit less that clear thinking, unable to grasp all the nuances of questions you might be asked. I've had clients who couldn't give a decent explanation of an incident that was calm as could be, no alarm, etc they just can't think straight under the slightest pressure.

You are not trying to hide the truth here, but merely to avoid stating truth in terms more damaging than needs be.

[cheezit]

on number #2 the first think i think i would ask for is a trip to the hospital. the odds of not feeling so well is pretty good. it will remove you from the location pretty quickly, allow you time to gather your thoughts and contact whoever you need to.

[Jaguar]

The main reason is that what you say can be sued against you, but what your lawyer says to the police can not. What the lawyer tells them will be hopefully after getting your version, sorting out the emotional and the confused from the factual, and no risk of an emotional blurting out of something in a way that worsens the situation. If they trick your lawyer, that isn't used against you. "The investigation is ongoing and not all the facts are yet known, etc."

I have not been in the situation but I can imagine that you, in the immediate aftermath of an incident, might be over wrought, maybe a bit less that clear thinking, unable to grasp all the nuances of questions you might be asked. I've had clients who couldn't give a decent explanation of an incident that was calm as could be, no alarm, etc they just can't think straight under the slightest pressure.

You are not trying to hide the truth here, but merely to avoid stating truth in terms more damaging than needs be.

No like button, this will have to do.