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This is my first post, however I have used the board for about 3 years and have been a chl holder for about 2. Tonight a friend of mine and I were driving around Austin at 9 pm, when I encountered a dangerous driver filled with Road Rage. I turned off of a dark street onto another, and pulled in front of a tanned Tahoe, whose headlights were off. The vehicle thought i intentionally cut him off and sped up. The gentleman honked his horn, even though it was his fault I didn't see him. He then pulled up next to me and started yelling, flipping me off, and throwing his hands around. This was not my first time to encounter this as I think we all have seen this behavior before. I brushed it off and kept driving.

The driver switched lanes in front of me and slowed down, then started to pull to the right as if he was going to turn or pull over into the bike lane/shoulder. Instead of passing him in the right lane I moved to the left in order to give myself more distance. He then swerved his vehicle at mine and attempted to side swipe me, and he was pointing his finger at me as if it was a firearm and motioned that he was shooting. Not knowing what he was doing I reached into my glove box and explained to my friend that I was going to draw my sidearm. I had my Kel-tec pf9 in a holster and pointed the gun at the filing of my car and not at th driver. My intention was to let him know that I was armed but I didn't feel that I should point at the driver. I sped up to flee away however he came up beside me again and swerved at me a second time, This time I held my gun up and waived it, still not pointing it at him, hoping that he would see it this time, he continued to mimick firing a gun at me with his hands, until he either saw that I was holding a gun or decided to wise up.
He turned off to another street.

I apologized to my friend for having to see that and assured him that I did not want do that and I had never had to before. I genuinely felt threatened and as I said I tried to avoid confrontation. I was driving a 4 door sedan and the Tahoe or surbuban was probably twice the size mine. I felt that my safety was at risk and that the driver of the other vehicle crossed the fine line of Road Rage to Assault, when he tried to side swipe me. Was I right to draw my gun? What would you all have done?

My thoughts.. Call 911, first, on speaker, drive defensively putting distance/objects between you and the BG. This could be as easy a slowing down vs. speeding up. Passenger gets description of vehicle/driver/license-plate, possibly with cell-phone pics. All while you try to put distance/objects between you and the BG. Get someplace public that likely has cameras if it comes to that... Gas station, bank, etc.

I wouldn't display my weapon, especially in a moving vehicle. Too much could go wrong in so many different ways. If I see a gun then yeah I might be slamming on the brakes, drawing and yelling into the phone "he's gotta gun! get down! etc."
Otherwise I'd focus on paying attention to driving and defense. And for all you know the BG turned off on a side-street after seeing a gun and called the police to report some lunatic in a small 4-door sedan waving a gun at him...

Of course it's easy to say here from my arm-chair, since I don't have some crazy trying to side-swipe said arm-chair. Hopefully if I'm ever in that situation, I'll stick to a defensive plan that avoids gun-play and bumper cars.

Certainly not a good situation to be in however I would not have pulled a gun. In my opinion, display of your weapon may have escalated the situation and given the other driver a reason to hit you. I think you set yourself up for a very bad situation if the other driver decided to call the police. If you were of mind to pull your weapon and make sure not to point it at the guy, I would say you were not at a threat level that warranted pulling your weapon. I would not pull my weapon unless I intended to fire it.

Coob5 wrote:This is my first post, however I have used the board for about 3 years and have been a chl holder for about 2. Tonight a friend of mine and I were driving around Austin at 9 pm, when I encountered a dangerous driver filled with Road Rage. I turned off of a dark street onto another, and pulled in front of a tanned Tahoe, whose headlights were off. The vehicle thought i intentionally cut him off and sped up. The gentleman honked his horn, even though it was his fault I didn't see him. He then pulled up next to me and started yelling, flipping me off, and throwing his hands around. This was not my first time to encounter this as I think we all have seen this behavior before. I brushed it off and kept driving.

The driver switched lanes in front of me and slowed down, then started to pull to the right as if he was going to turn or pull over into the bike lane/shoulder. Instead of passing him in the right lane I moved to the left in order to give myself more distance. He then swerved his vehicle at mine and attempted to side swipe me, and he was pointing his finger at me as if it was a firearm and motioned that he was shooting. Not knowing what he was doing I reached into my glove box and explained to my friend that I was going to draw my sidearm. I had my Kel-tec pf9 in a holster and pointed the gun at the filing of my car and not at th driver. My intention was to let him know that I was armed but I didn't feel that I should point at the driver. I sped up to flee away however he came up beside me again and swerved at me a second time, This time I held my gun up and waived it, still not pointing it at him, hoping that he would see it this time, he continued to mimick firing a gun at me with his hands, until he either saw that I was holding a gun or decided to wise up.
He turned off to another street.

I apologized to my friend for having to see that and assured him that I did not want do that and I had never had to before. I genuinely felt threatened and as I said I tried to avoid confrontation. I was driving a 4 door sedan and the Tahoe or surbuban was probably twice the size mine. I felt that my safety was at risk and that the driver of the other vehicle crossed the fine line of Road Rage to Assault, when he tried to side swipe me. Was I right to draw my gun? What would you all have done?

I don't blame you for readying the weapon, but waving it at him (making it visible) was probably not a good idea unless you intended to use it.

I see it is your first post, so WELCOME!

You are very lucky.

I know of a guy who was recently convicted of aggravated menacing and lost his CHL for doing exactly what you just did. I could supply the link if it matters.

If I pull my gun, it is because I am in immediate fear of death or serious injury and I am ready to shoot. It is not a "magic talisman" to be waved around and used as a warning.

Interesting first post. You messed up several times IMO. You're lucky he didn't call the cops on you...or perhaps he did and they are still looking for you at this moment.

Thanks for the feedback and honesty you all. Looks like I could have handled it another way. I don't think I carry around a toy and my intention was to get me out of a dangerous situation. All I can do is learn from this on the event I am faced with a similar situation.

Sounds a little more intense than the usual road rage. I would have done my best to disengage, slowing, turning or pulling into a populated location. Never show the weapon unless you are ready to shoot. He could have had one also and the situation would have esculated.
Situation awareness and avoidance,

I think a fast U-turn was in order.
As others have said, ready your weapon but don't display it until you are committed to using it - whether you actually do or not.

In CHL class I was taught to avoid conflict, to not escalate a bad situation, to escape if that was the best option. From your own description of events, I believe you could have avoided much of the conflict once you realized your situation. If the situation was dire, you should have had your passenger call 911 while you had two hands on the wheel. Displaying your handgun was probably NOT your best option.

agree with those who advise against showing your weapon in a situation like that. what if a cop had been sitting in his personal vehicle and seen the two of you pass by while you're waving a gun around?... what would his initial thoughts on the situation be and how would he have called it in to dispatch?

these are things you have to think about, even in a situation like that.

i understand the stress you undoubtedly had to endure while this was going on, but that's part of being a CHL... learning to deal with stressful situations in a calm, rational manner - then drawing your weapon ONLY when it's a definite life or death situation.

Now, where i draw a blank is this: what happens when someone is attacking you with their vehicle? it is most certainly considered a deadly weapon, i wonder how the courts would view this situation had you fired on him and injured/killed the driver.

if anyone has a precedent they can reference, im all ears.


glad this all turned out ok and if you havent already done this - id recommend calling the APD and reporting the whole thing.

schufflerbot wrote: Now, where i draw a blank is this: what happens when someone is attacking you with their vehicle? it is most certainly considered a deadly weapon, i wonder how the courts would view this situation had you fired on him and injured/killed the driver.

if anyone has a precedent they can reference, im all ears.

You don't have a choice in that situation. You either evade or shoot the driver (preferably in that order). The hard part is convincing a Grand Jury (or further up the legal food-chain) that you were truly in fear for your life.

Purplehood wrote:

schufflerbot wrote: Now, where i draw a blank is this: what happens when someone is attacking you with their vehicle? it is most certainly considered a deadly weapon, i wonder how the courts would view this situation had you fired on him and injured/killed the driver.

if anyone has a precedent they can reference, im all ears.

You don't have a choice in that situation. You either evade or shoot the driver (preferably in that order). The hard part is convincing a Grand Jury (or further up the legal food-chain) that you were truly in fear for your life.

well, i dont know how hard that would be.

if you're on a freeway at night and someone is trying to ram your vehicle, or bring you to a stop after a road rage incident - i cant see anything good coming from any action other than out horsepowering them, or showing/using the weapon. granted, it would be your word against theirs so i dont know... maybe it would be nearly impossible to prove.

either way, im going to stay out of road rage situations if i can, lol.

Purplehood wrote:

schufflerbot wrote: Now, where i draw a blank is this: what happens when someone is attacking you with their vehicle? it is most certainly considered a deadly weapon, i wonder how the courts would view this situation had you fired on him and injured/killed the driver.

You don't have a choice in that situation. You either evade or shoot the driver (preferably in that order). The hard part is convincing a Grand Jury (or further up the legal food-chain) that you were truly in fear for your life.

..or that those were your only two choices.

Rex B wrote:

Purplehood wrote:

schufflerbot wrote: Now, where i draw a blank is this: what happens when someone is attacking you with their vehicle? it is most certainly considered a deadly weapon, i wonder how the courts would view this situation had you fired on him and injured/killed the driver.

You don't have a choice in that situation. You either evade or shoot the driver (preferably in that order). The hard part is convincing a Grand Jury (or further up the legal food-chain) that you were truly in fear for your life.

..or that those were your only two choices.

man, ive been in a situation where there was literally NOTHING i could do to get out of a road rage incident. my brother and i were in my GTO when a minivan with at least 3 people in it came up and started yelling and flinging their arms around, like we had done something wrong. we hadnt, as we had been sitting in one lane for the last 2 minutes at least, were in the middle of a conversation and werent even speeding. we both noticed them freaking out and yelling at us to pull over... we were on a 3 lane road with a curbed median and were in the middle lane - i gave them the 'huh?' palms up arm motion as if to say, 'why are you yelling at us?' and that just enraged these guys further. the driver sped up, i assumed to speed off... instead he cuts me off and SLAMS on his brakes.

now, luckily my car has upgraded brakes and i didnt rear end them... but it was close. he literally came to a dead stop in the middle of the road and when i saw a leg start to exit the passenger side of the van, i threw it in reverse and looked into my rearview. there were cars coming up on us and i couldnt tell how fast they were coming, so i couldnt back up. the driver and passenger were now out of the van, yelling at us and walking toward my car. the driver took his shirt off and the 3rd person got out.

i said, 'screw this' and hit the gas before they got to our doors. the driver threw his shirt at my car and they started to run at us, so i put the car in first and took off past them.

didnt see them again, but man... if i had my CHL and was armed at that time, i could totally see at least one dead/injured person from that incident.

not fun and i was literally scared for my/my brother's lives.