TexasCHLforum.com

Irving, TX

A citizen who went outside with an air rifle to scare away possible miscreants was shot and killed by police who had responded stealthily on foot to a call of shots fired in the area. Police opened fire when the man, who had no criminal record, reportedly ignored their commands to drop the gun and turned toward them with the weapon in hand. Family members are requesting outside investigation of the incident.

This is another tragic reminder of the hazards involved in leaving a solid defensive position inside to investigate suspicious activity outside. There are many uncontrollable factors that can lead to disaster under these circumstances, including the high potential for good guy on good guy shootings.

The news report can be found here.

This is why I don't investigate strange noises. I've seen too many horror movies. Whatever is out there is gonna have to come to me.

I disagree with the OP headline. Yes, he was "investigating" the noises, but he carried something to threaten the possible cause of the noise with. This is a major strategic and tactical error - the "weapon" implies deadly force, except on closer inspection, it is not deadly. And then instead of just dropping it, he turned.

Do you want me to guess how long he might have (normally) waited for police to arrive? Talk about bad luck!

Considering that he had an air rifle, it's possible he wasted precious seconds thinking, "What, this?" when told to drop the gun.

You don't have to be too 'fuzzy headed' to not react properly.

jimlongley wrote:I disagree with the OP headline. Yes, he was "investigating" the noises, but he carried something to threaten the possible cause of the noise with. This is a major strategic and tactical error - the "weapon" implies deadly force, except on closer inspection, it is not deadly. And then instead of just dropping it, he turned.

The character limitations in the headline field required some compromises, but the information provided was accurate.

The noises the citizen was investigating were reported by others as gunshots. Clearly an air rifle is not an appropriate countermeasure for confronting someone armed with the firearm that caused the noises, and the expectation that the presence of an air rifle will frighten someone who is unlawfully using a firearm is a pretty shaky proposition. It is much more likely that the sight of what appears to be a firearm would motivate an offender to fire his real weapon at someone who appears to be a deadly threat and the defender would be unable to effectively respond. In other words, if he had found what he expected to find, he very likely would have been shot by a bad guy. Same ending, different actor.

Even if the citizen had carried a Remington 870 and kept his behavior the same, the ending would have been the same too. The challenges of low light, 360 degree situational awareness in a location with multiple opaque structures and objects, an unexpected armed good guy in the midst of a situation where responders are expecting to find an armed bad guy, and the split second decision making required of the officers under the circumstances combined to create the type of tragedy I have repeatedly cautioned about in other threads where members have maintained it's prudent to go outside to investigate in similar situations. While rural areas are a special case because of long police response times, in cities and suburbs it's almost never a good idea, and it's beyond dangerous because of all the tactical disadvantages and unknowns.

The citizen's primary strategic and tactical error here was going outside to investigate when that wasn't necessary. Everything else in this sad tale went south from there, and he paid the ultimate price. The officers involved will also pay a heavy personal and professional price for the event sequence precipitated by his error in judgment for many years to come.

The guys's situational awareness was low - it could easily have been gang members, potential home invaders, or some other miscreants rather than the police who got the drop on him.

karder wrote:Whatever is out there is gonna have to come to me.

This attitude will keep you alive 99% of the time.

HankB wrote:The guys's situational awareness was low - it could easily have been gang members, potential home invaders, or some other miscreants rather than the police who got the drop on him.

karder wrote:Whatever is out there is gonna have to come to me.

This attitude will keep you alive 99% of the time.

You're right that his situational awareness wasn't up to the situation he placed himself in, but I think it would be an oversimplification to say that he simply wasn't aware enough. While the details of exactly how the event played out haven't been published, there are a few things we can reasonably consider at this point.

It's important to understand that continuous 360 degree scanning for all potential threats, sounds, and movement in an adrenaline charged low light environment is a severe challenge for anyone. The citizen's ability to detect and process the amount of information he needed to survive would be easily overwhelmed by the amount of information presented (surprise, shouts and commands from unexpected officers) and the extremely short time frame he had to successfully make and implement decisions. The case is another tragic example of what happens when armchair commando tactics that sound great over a beer with one's buddies meet the unforgiving reality of the street where violent encounters are incredibly fast, brutal, and final.

A defender who remains inside his residence can take a known position of cover and limit the angles from which he can be approached. He can be certain that, if he knows where all family members are, anyone making a forcible entry and approach to his position is an intruder. With detection and identification questions out of the way, the intruder is then on the short end of the disadvantages described above in terms of detection, processing, and time. This gives the defender a much better chance of resolving the incident in favor of the good guys.

When things get dicey and lives are on the line, I'm a proponent of keeping every situational and tactical advantage I possibly can in my favor, and giving away nothing unnecessarily. There will always be enough challenges from surprises and unknowns without acting to stack the odds in favor of one's opponent.

I agree with both you and karder that, whenever possible, any aggressor should be forced to come to a prepared defender's position where things have the best chance of being sorted out in favor of the defender.

There is one big mystery, who is that smart person who picks up a BB gun to defend his family, investigate "noises". Was his BB gun loaded? is it the kind of 1-shot, or multiple BB with CO2 can?

Beiruty wrote:There is one big mystery, who is that smart person who picks up a BB gun to defend his family, investigate "noises". Was his BB gun loaded? is it the kind of 1-shot, or multiple BB with CO2 can?

Someone who wants to act big and macho but doesn't have the first clue on how to defend himself. Quite unfortunate this happened. I own an airsoft replica of a Glock 17 and it looks and feels real except for the little strip of orange paint on the muzzle. I don't ever carry it unless I'm repelling stray cats or actively involved in an "airsoft war." Perhaps they should go back to 'safety coloring' them.

karder wrote: Whatever is out there is gonna have to come to me.

seamusTX has this issue nailed. "Force the enemy to come to you, uphill, on ground that you know."

Do we have a Darwin Award candidate?

let's play this out:

Said dude is sitting on his couch watching Oprah or somehting... All of a sudden hears strange noises that appear to be gunshots.
Dude grabs a pellet/bb gun [MISTAKE #1] and goes outside to "investigate" [MISTAKE #2] (hey, maybe he was trying to impress a female neighbor)
Then he hears a command to drop the weapon and doesn't[Mistake #3](he has to know he is outgunned-no matter who was issuing the commands)
Then the fellow turns toward the person commanding him to drop the weapon [FATAL MISTAKE]

This moron had to make several dim-witted choices to end up dead.

Yes, we can all criticize what this gentleman did wrong.

Let's keep in mind that this man's neighbors said he was a good man.
He was a 20 year employee at re-fueling aircraft at Love Field.

In his mind, he was trying to do the right thing, but his tactics were
uninformed.

In the end, he was a child of God like the rest of us and his absence will
sadden his family and co-workers forever.

Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind;
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
John Donne, 1572-1631, British

SIA

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Yes, we can all criticize what this gentleman did wrong.

Let's keep in mind that this man's neighbors said he was a good man.

SIA

The family of Nidal Hasan said the same thing.

The point of this thread is not so much to criticize, but to learn from his mistakes. Perhaps that's been lost on some folks reading this thread (myself included) because much of what occurred is considered common sense by most of us here.

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Yes, we can all criticize what this gentleman did wrong.

Let's keep in mind that this man's neighbors said he was a good man.
He was a 20 year employee at re-fueling aircraft at Love Field.

In his mind, he was trying to do the right thing, but his tactics were
uninformed.

In the end, he was a child of God like the rest of us and his absence will
sadden his family and co-workers forever.

Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind;
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
John Donne, 1572-1631, British

SIA

I agree, and that's what makes it a tragedy.

All involved were good people, and all suffered terribly as a result.

Unlike with evildoers like Nidal Hasan, this gentleman's neighbors were right - by all accounts and indications, he was a good man who thought he was doing the right thing. He died because he didn't know how to do handle the situation properly, and was overwhelmed by surprise and what to him were the unforeseeable dynamics of a police response requested by others without his knowledge.

Last night my wife heard some strange noises outside and called me.

I said call the Cops, stay indoor with the Browning Hi power within arms reach.

Turns out it was the maintenance crew digging up a sprinkler.

But I thought of this thread when she caled