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FYI for those in the area, keep your eyes out for a Black Male Driving a brand new Red Charger in the Copperfield Area who likes to point guns at female drivers.

A Friend of mine was driving her jeep and may have accidentally cut this guy off due to car engine issues (for which she was driving it to the shop), when he pulled up beside her and produced a weapon. He then sped off, and turned down a side road. After she got to the Mechanics shop, the guy pulled in the parking lot behind her, turned around, and sped off. She was unable to get his license plate.

She called the police, and obviously there wasn't much they could do but take down the description.

She's currently staying at my place in my guest bedroom, so in case he followed her or anything afterwards (as he obviously followed her to the mechanic's), It's condition orange for the next week or so.


Begin discussion of what YOU would do if someone pulled a gun on you while stopped at a red light.

Personally, I'm fairly confident in my 1911's ability to shoot through my door, at the guy.
Provided it's not heavy traffic, and there's no vehicles on the other side of him, I'm pretty certain I would not hesitate to shoot, and he wouldn't even need to see the weapon.
If someone points a weapon at me from their car, I have to assume the worst, that they are a gangbanger and this is an initiation where they are to kill random civilians.

If possible, drive away and call the pros in to handle it - if not handle it yourself.

Glad to hear that she is alright, though I'm sure that she has been shaken up a little. Hopefully nothing more comes of it.

dicion wrote:FYI for those in the area, keep your eyes out for a Black Male Driving a brand new Red Charger in the Copperfield Area who likes to point guns at female drivers.

A Friend of mine was driving her jeep and may have accidentally cut this guy off due to car engine issues (for which she was driving it to the shop), when he pulled up beside her and produced a weapon. He then sped off, and turned down a side road. After she got to the Mechanics shop, the guy pulled in the parking lot behind her, turned around, and sped off. She was unable to get his license plate.

She called the police, and obviously there wasn't much they could do but take down the description.

She's currently staying at my place in my guest bedroom, so in case he followed her or anything afterwards (as he obviously followed her to the mechanic's), It's condition orange for the next week or so.


Begin discussion of what YOU would do if someone pulled a gun on you while stopped at a red light.

Personally, I'm fairly confident in my 1911's ability to shoot through my door, at the guy.
Provided it's not heavy traffic, and there's no vehicles on the other side of him, I'm pretty certain I would not hesitate to shoot, and he wouldn't even need to see the weapon.
If someone points a weapon at me from their car, I have to assume the worst, that they are a gangbanger and this is an initiation where they are to kill random civilians.

I'd skip the "shoot through my door" part. Doors are full of all kinds of things that will stop a bullet - window cranks or motors, lock mechanisms, and side impact reinforcing panels. Even if a round made it through your door, it almost certainly wouldn't make it through his. None of my .45 rounds ever made it through 2 car doors when I was doing testing.

Shooting through the glass is even less productive - it will fill the air with tiny, very sharp and very painful glass fragments that will get in your eyes and create lots of extra excitement.

Did I mention the stunning effect and probable permanent hearing damage you'll get from discharging a large caliber handgun inside a car?

Your best, fastest, and most survivable strategy in that situation is to use the car itself to escape the kill zone.

Excaliber wrote:
I'd skip the "shoot through my door" part. Doors are full of all kinds of things that will stop a bullet - window cranks or motors, lock mechanisms, and side impact reinforcing panels. Even if a round made it through your door, it almost certainly wouldn't make it through his. None of my .45 rounds ever made it through 2 car doors when I was doing testing.

Shooting through the glass is even less productive - it will fill the air with tiny, very sharp and very painful glass fragments that will get in your eyes and create lots of extra excitement.

Did I mention the stunning effect and probable permanent hearing damage you'll get from discharging a large caliber handgun inside a car?

Your best, fastest, and most survivable strategy in that situation is to use the car itself to escape the kill zone.

Once again Excal, your wisdom is great.

I was pretty irritated earlier when I wrote that, as I had just been told that it happened... Of course I wanted to go shoot the guy

Since then I've cooled off a bit... and I agree. Getting out of there (run the light if "safe" to do so, put it in reverse and back away, bust a u-turn, just get away) is #1
If you can get the LP# number, great, thats a good #2.

It just makes me angry that theres trash like this out there....

Excaliber wrote:I'd skip the "shoot through my door" part. Doors are full of all kinds of things that will stop a bullet - window cranks or motors, lock mechanisms, and side impact reinforcing panels. Even if a round made it through your door, it almost certainly wouldn't make it through his. None of my .45 rounds ever made it through 2 car doors when I was doing testing.

One round in one spot maybe, but the Buick O' Truth shows that multiple 9mm rounds will do the job. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3_2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dicion,

Copperfield/Hwy 6 North area has certainly taken a turn for the worse over the last several years. I was planning on taking the nieces to the bowling alley over there one Friday night and my brother's LEO neighbor said he wouldn't go there after dark in uniform, much less take kids.

I worked in the area for 17 years and the decline has been noticeable.

Tass

I know you have already cooled down and taken Excalibur's great advice but I want to throw one more thing out there that will help a lil more I think.

Lets say you shoot the guy. Now you have to deal with the cops. more than likely you will get charged with something because you were in a vehicle. Now the first thing that you are gonna be asked by a prosecutor during trial is...

Prosec: You were in a vehicle, correct?
You: Yes sir/ma'am
Prosec: So, why did you not just drive away?


I know at that time it will be hard to do but if you look at it like that it might help you make a better choice for you and your family in the long run.

Just my $0.02

XtremeDuty.45 wrote: Prosec: You were in a vehicle, correct?
You: Yes sir/ma'am
Prosec: So, why did you not just drive away?

Because there's no duty to retreat in The Great State of Texas!

Seriously though, depends.. if you're blocked in because of traffic, or if you're pretty sure the dude's just going to follow you (after all, he's in a car too)... It could go so many ways.... It's just overall a bad scenario.

If you can articulate why you reasonable believe he would follow you will be better off. You already have that fact established.

I witnessed a domestic chase, stop, drive away follow & stop again, away & out of sight that time about 3 yrs ago while mowing a comercial lot on the loop here in Lufkin. Rough part of town. Situated on high ground w/ no othere business around. Litterally see a mile in one direction & .5 in the other. It was not pretty & I was headed for the phone as fast as little mower would go. They will follow if they think they can bully you.

I admit to being very hesitant to shoot in Traffic. The only scenario I can envision is being carjacked, otherwise I would have second-thoughts (meaning "hesitation") if in any sort of traffic congestion. The chance of bullets hitting uninvolved parties are high, even if the bullets hit your target.
My first thought would almost always be evasion and use of the phone. Fortunately all of my cars have hands-off phones.

dicion wrote:

XtremeDuty.45 wrote: Prosec: You were in a vehicle, correct?
You: Yes sir/ma'am
Prosec: So, why did you not just drive away?

Because there's no duty to retreat in The Great State of Texas!

Seriously though, depends.. if you're blocked in because of traffic, or if you're pretty sure the dude's just going to follow you (after all, he's in a car too)... It could go so many ways.... It's just overall a bad scenario.

While I would definitely attempt to leave, keep in mind that she was in the situation in the first place was because of engine trouble, so fleeing may not have been a valid option. In her specific situation, shooting through/out of the window may have been a very reasonable response. Also, from the fact that he followed her to the mechanics shop, it sounds like he was up for more bullying and possibly additional pistol waving or even shooting.

The fact that he turned tail once he realized that she was likely somewhere that she would have some form of backup is no indication that his "flight" will hold up, so staying alert seems like a very reasonable thing as well. It sounds to me like an excellent idea to keep your alert status at a high-yellow for now (orange is specific threat detected and preparation to fight, and you can't stay there very long), and allow it to drop back over time.

KD5NRH wrote:

Excaliber wrote:I'd skip the "shoot through my door" part. Doors are full of all kinds of things that will stop a bullet - window cranks or motors, lock mechanisms, and side impact reinforcing panels. Even if a round made it through your door, it almost certainly wouldn't make it through his. None of my .45 rounds ever made it through 2 car doors when I was doing testing.

One round in one spot maybe, but the Buick O' Truth shows that multiple 9mm rounds will do the job. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3_2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dicion had limited his remarks to .45 rounds, and so did I.

I'm familiar with the buick'o truth test, and I've done similar tests as well. The photo of the entry holes shows they were knowledgeably placed to avoid the internal obstacles I mentioned. From the exit holes, I would suspect that the rounds used were FMJ which certainly enhances penetration, but such ammo is rarely carried as a personal defense round by knowledgeable people for reasons thoroughly discussed in other threads here. That test also doesn't contain any data on the remaining energy carried by the rounds after they passed through 4 layers of sheet metal. You can bet that their initial penetration rating and combat effectiveness was sharply reduced.

The issues of destroying your own hearing and potentially blinding yourself if your side window shatters from your shots is as true with the 9mm as with the .45. You could expect a homicide charge if one of those rounds sailed just over the antagonist's vehicle and took out a truck driver or a pedestrian on the other side. It would also be difficult in my mind to testify afterwards that you acted responsibly by shooting through the door when there are the problems of figuring out how you aim accurately through an opaque metal door, and trying to predict where a bullet that has gone through one car door will go (note the group patterns on the entry and exit holes in the buick o' truth test.)

If it were me in the situation, I'd leave the gun in the holster and drive out of Dodge.

I have to admit that this one is a toughie with the consideration of mechanical troubles.

dicion wrote:Seriously though, depends.. if you're blocked in because of traffic, or if you're pretty sure the dude's just going to follow you (after all, he's in a car too)... It could go so many ways.... It's just overall a bad scenario.

Also worth considering; how often do police chases end in wrecks (frequently involving innocent bystanders) even before the officers try to PIT or anything else besides follow, and those are trained pursuers with a specific interest in the safety of the suspect and general public. Plus, the suspect (theoretically) knows the police won't execute, rape, or maim him if they catch up. Driving at high speeds in sheer abject terror is not generally a safe activity for anyone within range.

An important thing to remember, is that this entire incident probably occurred extremely quickly. The guy pulls up along side her, displays a handgun, speeds away. Not a lot of time to even process the information, much less draw and fire. I think that getting away from the guy with the vehicle is likely the most "actionable" defense. Immediately dropping back, or speeding forward depending on traffic situations would seem most advisable. As CHL holders, we then have a few more seconds to think and see what the other driver is doing. If he continues on, just get the information and call 911. If he attempts to stay with you, time to defend yourself. The only advise I would give your lady friend is to immediately proceed to a police or fire station if at all possible. Forget the mechanic. She was threatened with deadly force and obviously, the threat was not over as the guy started tailing her. She needs to get herself to the safest place possible if she can. I understand, she may have not known the area well. The fact that the driver tried to engage her for a second time, makes the situation a lot more serious than just a stupid kid displaying a gun and playing gangster.