Dangerous Road Rage Situation, WWYD?

[johnson0317]

next time wait until he shoots you then you can shoot back. the laws regarding displaying a weapon are stupid and so is thinking you if you pull a gun you must use it.

I don't think the common teaching is that you must use your gun if you pull it out. I think what people are trying to get across is that you better be willing and able to use it if you pull it out of your holster. If not, then it is a multi-hundred dollar rock. I would also say that the gun should not make an appearance unless you have gone to code orange and have a reasonable concern that you may need it.

I read lots of stories on here where people were in dicey situations, where they really had to use their wits, but they never once mention pulling out their weapon. Once you pull your gun, you have elevated the situation to a do-or-die crisis moment, and you better have thought out the next few steps.

RJ

[LSUTiger]

Agree with your assement. Every situation is different and everyone will have to decide whats best to do for them.

The point (s) I was trying to make was simply there are some situations where it would be in the best interest of your self preservation to be ready and not wait until the last possible moment (assuming all indications of danger are present). The threshold that actually producing a weapon is kosher is a little to much in favor of the bad guy in my opinion considering they know what they are about to do and you dont.

The second point is that from all the posts Ive read in other threads, there seems to be the prevailing thought that somehow pulling a gun and not having to use it is bad. Somehow if the gun comes out and you didnt have to use it you werent justified. I disagree with that. Again, not having to use the gun is alway good, but if the mere presence of one prevents me from getting harmed (or letting the situation escalate to the point that its use is necessary )thats good too. If your situational awareness such that you are aware of a potential threat then it will always be a tough call as to when is the right time to make ready to defend from an attack.

The third point is that the person who started this thread, in my opinion, made a mistake by displaying his weapon in his particular circumstance. I think he means to do right, and should learn better judgement. He should learn from this and what others have said but not to the point that he may put himself at risk, being afraid to do what is necessary in a self-defense situation. Its like saying since I've been in a car wreck so I'll never drive again. Thats not the attitude to have, just drive safer. But at the same time its the other drivers you have to watch out for.

[Jumping Frog]

The second point is that from all the posts Ive read in other threads, there seems to be the prevailing thought that somehow pulling a gun and not having to use it is bad. Somehow if the gun comes out and you didnt have to use it you werent justified. I disagree with that. Again, not having to use the gun is alway good, but if the mere presence of one prevents me from getting harmed (or letting the situation escalate to the point that its use is necessary )thats good too.

There is a fine distinction here that I want to highlight.

I see no problem with pulling a gun and ending up not needing to fire. But when I drew, I should be justified in using deadly force and ready to fire.

It is not OK to draw if deadly force is not warranted.

An extreme example to illustrate the point: A BG rushing towards you with a visible knife -- you are obviously justified in using deadly force. As you draw, the BG sees you doing so, drops the knife, stops advancing, turns and runs. You didn't need to fire, good outcome.

[fickman]

The problem with a road rage incident is that:

. . . even if you're my wife's 83 year old grandfather in West Texas

• WWII Naval vet
• Korean War Marine vet
• Retired minister
• Zero arrests
• Zero traffic citations

. . . with two nuns and an Eagle scout as independent eye witnesses, the public is still going to think your side of the story is polished and that you probably had more of a role in the incident than you're letting on.

We have no obligation to retreat, but if you're in a car, it's your best bet. Deescalate. Disengage. Avoid. Record (call 911, use a cell phone camera, etc.). If you break down, get trapped, or cannot escape, come to a stop and STAY IN YOUR CAR - where the basic principles of the castle doctrine are still in play for you against an aggressor.

Stay alive, then hope you did everything in your power to stay free.

[Kabong30]

I realize this thread is a little dated, but I registered with the site so I could respond to this. My father and I experienced an extremely similar (and different) situation when I was 17 (and I feel really old now realizing that was almost 20 years ago ) At any rate, this occurred just outside of Tucson, AZ (Saguaro Nat'l Monument for those who know the area) we were driving along a very twisty road that was filled with no passing zones and were being followed by a truck who very much wanted to pass. My father (who was driving) blocked this several times (mistake #1) and when we were on a straight portion of road let the driver pass. Once past us the driver immediately stopped in front of us and got out of the vehicle and started moving back to our vehicle. About the time my dad was going to start backing up another truck pulled up and boxed us in (it is important to note at this point that my father was unable to flee the vehicle because he was recovering from a broken leg). At that point my father reached into the center console and pulled out his pistol, now he did not point the weapon at the advancing driver (who was screaming about my dad being crazy) but showed it too him (arguably mistake #2). The driver looked like he wanted to evacuate his bowels but held his composure long enough to run back to his truck and drive away. We proceeded into town and I saw the guy pull into a gas station. After we finished out business we headed back out of town the same way we had come and I saw the driver from earlier accompanied by a Sheriff's deputy and jumping up and down and pointing at us. My dad immediately pulled over, and we were politely (and at gunpoint) asked to exit the vehicle. No one was arrested, but my father was cited, relieved of his weapon and we were released.

Fast forward to the court date. The driver asserts that my dad pointed the gun at him. The guy who boxed us in was the driver's buddy and they have cooked up and discussed their story so it matches and doesn't include any of the attempted passing. My dad winds up with 6 months probation for displaying the weapon (which he did get back). Why? Because he kept the guy from passing which initiated the contact. That said the judge had very stern words for all parties involved (except for me) and she could tell pretty easily that these two guys had cooked up a story together. I did testify to what happened, and told the story pretty much as I told it here (IE the truth).

There's probably a lot to analyze here (I go over it in my head quite a bit and come to different conclusions a lot) and laws have changed since that time. But I thought it would be good to share. I don't really think that my dad made a mistake pulling his firearm, but he definitely screwed up by not just letting the guy past initially. Either way, I hope it helps to see a little bit different conclusion than (the guy drove off and I never saw him again).

[Oldgringo]

I realize this thread is a little dated, but I registered with the site so I could respond to this. My father and I experienced an extremely similar (and different) situation when I was 17 (and I feel really old now realizing that was almost 20 years ago ) At any rate, this occurred just outside of Tucson, AZ (Saguaro Nat'l Monument for those who know the area) we were driving along a very twisty road that was filled with no passing zones and were being followed by a truck who very much wanted to pass. My father (who was driving) blocked this several times (mistake #1) and when we were on a straight portion of road let the driver pass. Once past us the driver immediately stopped in front of us and got out of the vehicle and started moving back to our vehicle. About the time my dad was going to start backing up another truck pulled up and boxed us in (it is important to note at this point that my father was unable to flee the vehicle because he was recovering from a broken leg). At that point my father reached into the center console and pulled out his pistol, now he did not point the weapon at the advancing driver (who was screaming about my dad being crazy) but showed it too him (arguably mistake #2). The driver looked like he wanted to evacuate his bowels but held his composure long enough to run back to his truck and drive away. We proceeded into town and I saw the guy pull into a gas station. After we finished out business we headed back out of town the same way we had come and I saw the driver from earlier accompanied by a Sheriff's deputy and jumping up and down and pointing at us. My dad immediately pulled over, and we were politely (and at gunpoint) asked to exit the vehicle. No one was arrested, but my father was cited, relieved of his weapon and we were released.

Fast forward to the court date. The driver asserts that my dad pointed the gun at him. The guy who boxed us in was the driver's buddy and they have cooked up and discussed their story so it matches and doesn't include any of the attempted passing. My dad winds up with 6 months probation for displaying the weapon (which he did get back). Why? Because he kept the guy from passing which initiated the contact. That said the judge had very stern words for all parties involved (except for me) and she could tell pretty easily that these two guys had cooked up a story together. I did testify to what happened, and told the story pretty much as I told it here (IE the truth).

There's probably a lot to analyze here (I go over it in my head quite a bit and come to different conclusions a lot) and laws have changed since that time. But I thought it would be good to share. I don't really think that my dad made a mistake pulling his firearm, but he definitely screwed up by not just letting the guy past initially. Either way, I hope it helps to see a little bit different conclusion than (the guy drove off and I never saw him again).

Good point with a good lesson. Welcome to the Texas CHL ward, BTW.

Now comes the question of how much 'road rage' do we instigate in other idiots by our own actions, eh?

[WildBill]

If I pull my gun, it is because I am in immediate fear of death or serious injury and I am ready to shoot. It is not a "magic talisman" to be waved around and used as a warning.

[C-dub]

If I pull my gun, it is because I am in immediate fear of death or serious injury and I am ready to shoot. It is not a "magic talisman" to be waved around and used as a warning.

Yeah, we know that, but the trick it seems is convincing a judge or jury of that.

[Lambda Force]

If I pull my gun, it is because I am in immediate fear of death or serious injury and I am ready to shoot. It is not a "magic talisman" to be waved around and used as a warning.

Yeah, we know that, but the trick it seems is convincing a judge or jury of that.

How easy or tricky depends on the county. And a whole bunch of other factors.

[03Lightningrocks]

Funny I saw this thread pop up. I was with my daughter and son in law tonight and we were driving down the access road just past Legacy heading towards Allen. A police officer had someone pulled over up ahead of us and so my son in law slowed down as required by law when passing in the lane next to the officer. Some clown in a pick up behind us got mad we slowed down and sped around us honking his horn. We all shrugged him off as a moron and kept going. We were now in a lane to the left of this clown. Our lane was going to end so my son in law sped up and moved over a lane. We were easily two to three car lengths in front of our new friend. The clown then speeds up on our rear end and starts flashing his lights at us. We again laugh him off as a moron. We turn and are heading to the post office when my daughter informs us that the moron is following us. At this point it becomes a joke that this guy is going to mess himself when he sees what steps out of the car. My son in law is one very large dude... and I don't mean fat. He use to do professional wrestling and has done some MMA training. LOL... he is bigger than 95% of us. I am no small fry either... I am older and big in a not so pretty way...LOL. The moron turned off just before we got to the post office but it makes you wonder just what folks are thinking when they rage on total strangers. Oh yeah... and my daughter and I were both carrying. Thank goodness this clown had a change of heart. We at no time did anything to encourage his behavior but he was about to get himself into some serious trouble if he followed us into that parking lot. These days one never knows who or what may be in that other vehicle. Many folks are carrying weapons in the cars. Is it really worth getting shot so you can give another driver crap over the way they are driving??? That feller will probably sleep well tonight but he will never realize how close he came to being in some serious hurt.

[Gyrogearhead]

Yeah, you gotta wonder what some people use for brains. But this has been around a long time. I remember seeing a "Goofey" (Mickey Mouse's side kick) cartoon when I was still driving a bicycle about the feeling of power people get when getting behind the wheel and how extreme the reaction when they feel their power is being challenged. I guess we haven't been out of the trees long enough yet.

Gerry

[03Lightningrocks]

Yep... folks will do things while in the "safety" of the car that they would never do in person. Can you folks imagine walking around someone in a grocery store and having them chase you down with their cart and try to ram you??? LOL...just thinking about it cracks me up!!!

[Oldgringo]

Yep... folks will do things while in the "safety" of the car that they would never do in person. Can you folks imagine walking around someone in a grocery store and having them chase you down with their cart and try to ram you??? LOL...just thinking about it cracks me up!!!

Hmmm....this might work for the specials. You know, 'while quantities last'...

[Lambda Force]

Yep... folks will do things while in the "safety" of the car that they would never do in person. Can you folks imagine walking around someone in a grocery store and having them chase you down with their cart and try to ram you??? LOL...just thinking about it cracks me up!!!

Or 10 shopping carts are in line at the cash register and they walk to the front to "merge" instead of getting in line.

[03Lightningrocks]

Yep... folks will do things while in the "safety" of the car that they would never do in person. Can you folks imagine walking around someone in a grocery store and having them chase you down with their cart and try to ram you??? LOL...just thinking about it cracks me up!!!

Hmmm....this might work for the specials. You know, 'while quantities last'...

LOL... about 30 years ago my x-wife almost got beat up fighting over a cabbage patch doll at Toys-R-Us!