Broke a rule....

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gemini
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Re: Broke a rule....

#16

Post by gemini »

philip964 wrote:I'm just saying shoot my dog and you better be ready to shoot me.

Those of you thinking that shooting a man's dog is a wise move, better think again. You would be better off shooting the owner first then the dog.
I don't think anyone is advocating the random act of shooting dogs, just to shoot dogs. Read through most threads regarding dogs, and
I think you'll find the majority of folks around here like dogs. Myself included.They'd shoot a dog as a last resort.
I'm wondering by the way your post reads.....are you saying no matter what your dog does, or what you allow your dog to do by not
controlling it, that a person defending their life or maybe a childs life by shooting your dog....... that you would then shoot that human?
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jamisjockey
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Re: Broke a rule....

#17

Post by jamisjockey »

philip964 wrote:I'm just saying shoot my dog and you better be ready to shoot me.

Those of you thinking that shooting a man's dog is a wise move, better think again. You would be better off shooting the owner first then the dog.
I AM NOT ADVOCATING SHOOTING THE DOG FOR NO REASON.
Didn't I already say that?
If your dog is on a public road chewing on me, he stands a high chance of getting shot. Get after me while I'm bleeding in the middle of the road, and you will recieve the same treatment as the dog.
I'm not sure how you have such a big problem with that?
KEEP YOUR DOG ON YOUR PROPERTY.
I'm not sure how you're trying to value the dog's life over my life? Dogs do what dogs do. Crappy owners let them out to prowl the neighborhood. If your dog is off your property and attacks me, it is a threat and I will do what I need to eliminate that threat.
HOW IS THAT SO TOOTIN HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

How on this earth do you think that letting your dog chew on me is somehow an acceptable outcome? Your logic escapes me.
Unless you're one of those people who lets their mutt run around the neighborhood and menace people?

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Re: Broke a rule....

#18

Post by chasfm11 »

philip964 wrote:I'm just saying shoot my dog and you better be ready to shoot me.

Those of you thinking that shooting a man's dog is a wise move, better think again. You would be better off shooting the owner first then the dog.
That is an interesting thought. Let me counter with a question: When does the owner of a dog become responsible for its actions and the potential consequences, particularly in light of the fact that those actions may be occurring because the owner has elected to violate Town ordnance?

I probably pass 30-40 dogs on my bike rides per week. Most are on leashes and well controlled. I usually don't give them a 2nd glance. For those off leash, I assess the relative age of the dog and its size. Older and smaller dogs also don't get much of my attention. I really don't care what they do as long as they leave me alone. I'm occasionally chased by a small yapper but at 20mph, most cannot keep up with me.

Right after I was bitten, I had a confrontation with about a 50lb off leash dog. I saw him coming and was off my bike, putting it and keeping it between me and him as he circled me to try to get closer. As the owner approached me, I curtly reminded him that the Town had a leash ordnance, using a single sentence. I was not particularly cordial because I felt that I was under attack. His response was "what are you going to do about it?" He then proceeded to yell at me to mind my own #$%@ business and that he would darn well handle his dog however he wanted to. Keep in mind that I'm on a designed and marked bike trail and, up to this point, have done nothing but ride my bike to try to keep my heart rate up. Faced with an large aggressive dog AND an irate owner, I could make a good case for being threatened with deadly force. Dogs which will show aggression towards strangers will often attack if their owners appear to be in some sort of an altercation. At that moment, the owner was in a flanking position and I was trying to figure out how I was going to deal with both of them at the same time because if one attacked me, I expected the other to do so, too. I had done nothing but to use my bike as a shield.

Those who have never been attacked by a dog do not understand what it is like. I'm not going to stand by and become one of those victims whose face was all torn up by a vicious animal. As far as I'm concerned, the easiest way for me to avoid these kinds of confrontations is to ride off the bike trail if I must to put as much space as possible between me and a potentially aggressive dog. If that dog chooses not to leave me alone, I'll do what I have to to protect myself. The easiest way for an owner not to have his dog in that kind of situation is simply to maintain control of it.
Last edited by chasfm11 on Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Broke a rule....

#19

Post by jamisjockey »

chasfm11 wrote:
philip964 wrote:. The easiest way for an owner not to have his dog in that kind of situation is simply to maintain control of it.


There is also usually a legal obligation for someone to do so as well.
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Re: Broke a rule....

#20

Post by gigag04 »

philip964 wrote:I'm just saying shoot my dog and you better be ready to shoot me.

Those of you thinking that shooting a man's dog is a wise move, better think again. You would be better off shooting the owner first then the dog.
I've shot dogs in self defense while on duty when they charged me. I feel like a person would be ok if they did the same.
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Re: Broke a rule....

#21

Post by gregthehand »

If anyone wants to hear a funny story about dogs, pepper spray and cops PM me. I can't post it here. :tiphat:
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Re: Broke a rule....

#22

Post by baraco01 »

got bitten once and it was not a nice experience.... there will never be a next time. And if the owner attacks me for shooting his dog, then he too gets shot :evil2:
Don't get me wrong - I am a dog lover just as I love people. Don't forget that we are allowed to defend ourselves from other people too.
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Re: Broke a rule....

#23

Post by Purplehood »

My first thought would be Pepper Spray. A firearm would likely be a distant second. Having once been a postal carrier I have a fair deal of experience with dogs and territoriality.
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Re: Broke a rule....

#24

Post by chasfm11 »

Purplehood wrote:My first thought would be Pepper Spray. A firearm would likely be a distant second. Having once been a postal carrier I have a fair deal of experience with dogs and territoriality.
I've always had a lot of respect for postal carriers, meter readers and others who have to go to where dogs live to perform their duties. One of our dogs (always fenced) is very territorial and would not be happy about someone coming into her yard. Fortunately, our meter is outside of her area.

I view public places very differently. A dog in a public place has to be well mannered, well-controlled or both. We go to a lot of RV campgrounds where a few people allow their dogs to roam freely. I guess it never occurred to them that others might not enjoy a strange dog jumping up onto a picnic table where there is food being served.

In the end, I believe that ratio of bad dog owners mirrors the ratio of criminals in society. A very few and mostly repeat offenders are a blight on otherwise responsible people who own dogs. As Cesar Milan says, you don't train dogs, you train owners.
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Re: Broke a rule....

#25

Post by C-dub »

chasfm11 wrote:I, too, have been bitten while bike riding. I normally ride 3 times a week, 12 miles per ride and try to get it done in 55 minutes. I was watching a guy with about a 65lb Doberman on a retractable leash and thought I had gotten by. That dog went from 30ft on one side of the owner, past the owner another 20 feet towards me, grabbing my right calf, drawing a reasonable amount of blood through a pair of sweat pants. Even if I had had a gun with me, there is no way that I could have outdrawn that dog.

After he bit me, I almost got into an altercation with the owner who refused to identify himself.

Note to self: Never, ever ride without a cellphone with a camera again.

I have mixed feelings about shooting the dog after it has bitten me. According to the Town, I'd be at fault, even though the animal has shown a willingness to take a piece of my flesh (I did report the incident and talked with an animal control officer who tried to find the animal). I also doubt that I would have been effective with pepper spray or maybe even bear spray. It happened too quick.

My strategy now is that if I see a dog, even a leashed that looks like trouble (and I knew the Doberman was but it looked like I had a enough distance), I slow down enough that I can get off and put my bike between us. I've had to do that in the past week with a pit bull mix.

I'm a dog lover and a dog owner. I have zero time for irresponsible owners. When you cannot control your dog on a leash you are holding, you are way beyond irresponsible in my book. We won't even talk about the ones where the dog is off leash and pays no attention to the owner.
I would have just followed him home.
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Re: Broke a rule....

#26

Post by Abraham »

I too cycle for fitness and do so well out in the country.

I carry a 4 oz. can of Freeze Plus P in a belt clip holder on my cycling trips. This is a very potent pepper/tear gas stream spray. I also maintain a very close watch on the road for loose dogs. If I see a loose one, I always pull the spray off my belt and keep it handy, just in case...

I've sprayed many, many dogs over the years. I've tried Fox Labs with mixed results. Freeze Plus P has never failed me. I've stopped just about every kind of attacking dog out there. I've learned a Z pattern spray works best and a few times, as I'm pedaling to get away from an attacking dog, I've simply just sprayed underhanded without looking behind me with great effect. I almost always feel bad when I have to spray a dog as I think it's not the poor critters fault - it's the owners for not training and restraining. Fortunately, the dog isn't injured by this action, but simply taught a painful lesson. Rarely do strays bother me as I guess they're too busy trying to survive and have little energy to chase a guy on a bike.

Certainly, on occasion dogs get loose after the owner has done his best to keep the dogs under control, but if that happens the owner can't expect people to simply let their dogs potentially bite the innocent passersby. People have a right to protect themselves and the owner should understand this.

The irresponsible owner that blithely lets his dog roam the streets can't care much about his animal. If the same owner gets outraged over his dog being sprayed or shot should look in the mirror for whose at fault...

P.S. I would never recommend getting off your bike if a dog comes after you. Pedal away as quickly and as safely you can with your spray at the ready.
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Re: Broke a rule....

#27

Post by jamisjockey »

I'll have to look into that brand spray. Most pepper sprays do the fogger thing and that sucks on a bike. A good reliable stream product might be the extra ticket and keep me from having to shoot a dog.

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Re: Broke a rule....

#28

Post by chasfm11 »

C-dub wrote:
chasfm11 wrote:I, too, have been bitten while bike riding. I normally ride 3 times a week, 12 miles per ride and try to get it done in 55 minutes. I was watching a guy with about a 65lb Doberman on a retractable leash and thought I had gotten by. That dog went from 30ft on one side of the owner, past the owner another 20 feet towards me, grabbing my right calf, drawing a reasonable amount of blood through a pair of sweat pants. Even if I had had a gun with me, there is no way that I could have outdrawn that dog.

After he bit me, I almost got into an altercation with the owner who refused to identify himself.

Note to self: Never, ever ride without a cellphone with a camera again.

I have mixed feelings about shooting the dog after it has bitten me. According to the Town, I'd be at fault, even though the animal has shown a willingness to take a piece of my flesh (I did report the incident and talked with an animal control officer who tried to find the animal). I also doubt that I would have been effective with pepper spray or maybe even bear spray. It happened too quick.

My strategy now is that if I see a dog, even a leashed that looks like trouble (and I knew the Doberman was but it looked like I had a enough distance), I slow down enough that I can get off and put my bike between us. I've had to do that in the past week with a pit bull mix.

I'm a dog lover and a dog owner. I have zero time for irresponsible owners. When you cannot control your dog on a leash you are holding, you are way beyond irresponsible in my book. We won't even talk about the ones where the dog is off leash and pays no attention to the owner.
I would have just followed him home.
I tried to do that but he knew that I was angry from our exchange (with blood dripping from your leg, wouldn't you be?) and he was not walking in the direction of any housing. I broke off to try to find a house where someone was home to call the LEOs but it was the middle of the day and I wasn't successful. I decided that it was better to go home and tend to my wound than the follow the creep on a wild goose chase.
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Keith B
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Re: Broke a rule....

#29

Post by Keith B »

jamisjockey wrote:I'll have to look into that brand spray. Most pepper sprays do the fogger thing and that sucks on a bike. A good reliable stream product might be the extra ticket and keep me from having to shoot a dog.
IMO the gel-type sprays are much better as they 'adhere' to the spray-ee. Also, like you mentioned, the wind doesn't play into it as much.

A little off-topic, but relevant to gel vs. atomized aerosol sprays: Back in my LEO days we were still using CS. Got called to a disturbance at an old neighborhood tavern. Another officer had already gone inside, and myself and a third officer were arriving at the same time. As we ran down the sidewalk to go into the tavern, I passed the window that had an exhaust-type window fan. Just as I passed, the officer inside was wrestling with an unruly person in front of the fan attempted to spray him with CS. He basically missed the guys face, and the majority of the spray got sucked into the fan and out the window, right into the face of the officer behind me. Luckily the guy inside settled down since there were now two officers subduing him, and we were able to cuff him easily, but had I not been there the CS had basically incapacitated the second officer and he was of no help as backup. Had it been a gel-type of spray, that probably wouldn't have happened.
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chasfm11
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Re: Broke a rule....

#30

Post by chasfm11 »

Abraham wrote:.....
P.S. I would never recommend getting off your bike if a dog comes after you. Pedal away as quickly and as safely you can with your spray at the ready.
That is what resulted in my bite situation. I had just turned a corner and was down around 10mph. When I caught the dog starting toward me out of the corner of my eye, I started pump as hard as I could. I could not accelerate fast enough to get away and the dog lunged at me. My sweat pants probably keep the bite from being worse because she couldn't get a good grip. I prevented the attack from continuing by getting my body on the side of bike opposite the dog. The dog was definitely ready to continue.

A lot of my response is dictated by my condition at the time of the attack. There are several points in my ride where I am challenging my heart rate. If I'm already gassed, applying a lot more energy at that moment to try to get away may not be possible. At 60+, I don't have the reserve that I used to have, even if I'm really scared.

We often talk on this board about how quickly things can go South with a BG. I see dog attacks at that same level regarding the speed of development.

I am going to look into getting the spray that you recommend.
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