Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

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Excaliber
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#31

Post by Excaliber »

WildBill wrote:
baldeagle wrote:
WildBill wrote:There is a recent thread about a group of thugs sitting on a car so the owner felt he couldn't safely get in his car and drive home. Shouldn't a person have the right to physically remove them from their property without being arrested for assault? Do the police have this right?
Let's pursue the deadly force angle. How many thugs do you think you can take on before you get hit by a round? Who else will be shot in the process? Do you think merely brandishing your weapon would cause them to disperse? What's the legal grounds for brandishing at that point? What would be the legal grounds for the use of deadly force?

Those are all questions you need to answer before you go outside to confront them.
I was discussing rights and the principle of such situations, not tactics. Nothing in the post suggested that they were armed. They just looked scary. If the thugs were armed and you were outnumbered, it would be foolish to engage.
Not carrying a firearm doesn't mean unarmed for a thug anymore than it would for us. The mind is the weapon - everything else is a tool.

5 or 6 intoxicated, angry folks can ruin one's day quite thoroughly without the help of any firearms.

I agree with WildBill's conclusion - it would be foolish to engage.
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I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#32

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Oldgringo wrote:The scenario as presented doesn't call for deadly force. Wading in with an axe handle ala Buford Pusser to disperse the gathering is also questionable. The best bet, IMO, is to call the local constabulary and report an unlawful gathering on and about your vehicle. Who knows the "thugs" you perceive may be a band of Hara Krishnas holding a prayer meeting.

Another idea, wild as it seems, is to avoid neighborhoods where thugs, methheads, crackheads, hookers and assorted other undesirables hang out.

Good night, Mrs Calabash...wherever you are.

PS:

(There are a couple of "oldies" hidden in here, anybody see 'em?)
There are precisely three:

1) Buford Pusser, the subject of the original Walking Tall movie;
2) Hara Krishas, who used to infest airports asking for money and seriously asking for a beat-down;
3) and Mrs. Calabash, Jimmy Durante's signoff line from his radio and television shows.

:mrgreen:
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#33

Post by baldeagle »

Oldgringo wrote:I wish I could make my computer do that [url] thinghy. That is so cool.
It's really pretty simple, OG. Click on URL above. That will create this [ url][/url ]. (I've added a space so it will display correctly.) Then you simply add the actual url and text you want, like this:
[ url=http://www.example.com/]Put the text you want here[/url ].
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#34

Post by olafpfj »

Having been in the OP's hypothetical for real I can offer how I handled it and why. Any number of things could have been different and that would have changed how I dealt with it. I will run down the list of observations, options, decisions and the reason why I chose to do what I did.
1. Could not avoid the situation. I was at work and had worked there for several years without incident. Sure the area could be sketchy but nothing had ever happened and I didn't have the luxury of simply quitting my job and finding another.
2. I had the luxury of being able to identify the problem from the safety of the building. This meant I didn't have to force the issue with the gang. Decision time...tell them to get lost or wait. Armed or not only a fool would've waded into that mess as I was outnumbered 8 to 1 that I could see. I waited...15...20...25...30 minutes. They didn't leave.
3. Now what. Its late and I'm tired and if I wait too much longer I'll be too tired to drive the hour home. Again time to decide...wait longer or tell em to get lost...or...call the police.
4. Called the police. Not 911 but Venice PD. Politely told to get over it and wait, they have real crime to deal with. Also told that if I want them to respond the thugs need to do something illegal like threaten me and or beat me. Sigh...I wait.
5. They leave finally. I wait another 5-10 minutes to make sure they aren't just around the corner and go home tired and annoyed...but I go home in one piece and have nothing but a story and no legal issues.

Change any one of those variables and things might have been different. I haplessly walk up to my car without seeing them and find myself surprised, trapped, and verbally threatened...who knows. I saw the situation and chose, wisely I think, to just choose tired and annoyed over any of the other options. Mind you I had the luxury of options and picked what I picked. In the middle of nowhere with the temperature dropping and fearing freezing to death I may well have pressed the issue. The only advantage I can see in being armed that night would've been had I unwittingly walked blindly into that problem and it turning sideways in a hurry. Situational awareness worked for me that night by me not ever being in that position. Like the song says..."know when to hold em, know when to fold em...know when to walk away, know when to run".
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#35

Post by Oldgringo »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:The scenario as presented doesn't call for deadly force. Wading in with an axe handle ala Buford Pusser to disperse the gathering is also questionable. The best bet, IMO, is to call the local constabulary and report an unlawful gathering on and about your vehicle. Who knows the "thugs" you perceive may be a band of Hara Krishnas holding a prayer meeting.

Another idea, wild as it seems, is to avoid neighborhoods where thugs, methheads, crackheads, hookers and assorted other undesirables hang out.

Good night, Mrs Calabash...wherever you are.

PS:

(There are a couple of "oldies" hidden in here, anybody see 'em?)
There are precisely three:

1) Buford Pusser, the subject of the original Walking Tall movie;
2) Hara Krishas, who used to infest airports asking for money and seriously asking for a beat-down;
3) and Mrs. Calabash, Jimmy Durante's signoff line from his radio and television shows.

:mrgreen:
I knew you'd get 'em. :thumbs2:
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#36

Post by Excaliber »

olafpfj wrote:Having been in the OP's hypothetical for real I can offer how I handled it and why. Any number of things could have been different and that would have changed how I dealt with it. I will run down the list of observations, options, decisions and the reason why I chose to do what I did.
1. Could not avoid the situation. I was at work and had worked there for several years without incident. Sure the area could be sketchy but nothing had ever happened and I didn't have the luxury of simply quitting my job and finding another.
2. I had the luxury of being able to identify the problem from the safety of the building. This meant I didn't have to force the issue with the gang. Decision time...tell them to get lost or wait. Armed or not only a fool would've waded into that mess as I was outnumbered 8 to 1 that I could see. I waited...15...20...25...30 minutes. They didn't leave.
3. Now what. Its late and I'm tired and if I wait too much longer I'll be too tired to drive the hour home. Again time to decide...wait longer or tell em to get lost...or...call the police.
4. Called the police. Not 911 but Venice PD. Politely told to get over it and wait, they have real crime to deal with. Also told that if I want them to respond the thugs need to do something illegal like threaten me and or beat me. Sigh...I wait.
5. They leave finally. I wait another 5-10 minutes to make sure they aren't just around the corner and go home tired and annoyed...but I go home in one piece and have nothing but a story and no legal issues.

Change any one of those variables and things might have been different. I haplessly walk up to my car without seeing them and find myself surprised, trapped, and verbally threatened...who knows. I saw the situation and chose, wisely I think, to just choose tired and annoyed over any of the other options. Mind you I had the luxury of options and picked what I picked. In the middle of nowhere with the temperature dropping and fearing freezing to death I may well have pressed the issue. The only advantage I can see in being armed that night would've been had I unwittingly walked blindly into that problem and it turning sideways in a hurry. Situational awareness worked for me that night by me not ever being in that position. Like the song says..."know when to hold em, know when to fold em...know when to walk away, know when to run".
I think your analysis and decisions were the best available given the circumstances you were faced with.

Other than the delay in getting home, the outcome was the best possible too. I'd say you managed that situation really, really well, despite the lack of PD support. :cheers2:
Excaliber

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I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.

cubbyjg
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#37

Post by cubbyjg »

The lack of PD support is really disturbing.
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#38

Post by Bob in Big D »

cubbyjg wrote:The lack of PD support is really disturbing.

And it is only going to get worse as more PD's accross the Country cut the number of LEO's to meet budgets. Just one more reason I will have a CHL soon!
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#39

Post by Excaliber »

Bob in Big D wrote:
cubbyjg wrote:The lack of PD support is really disturbing.

And it is only going to get worse as more PD's accross the Country cut the number of LEO's to meet budgets. Just one more reason I will have a CHL soon!
This is a very likely scenario.

Here are the facts of life in police work:

It takes deployed staff to handle call volume. It takes money to deploy staff. If you don't have the money, you don't have the staff, and the call volume (which does not shrink with the budget) must be handled by the number of units you have. If the number of calls exceeds the physical capacity of the units to respond to them, you have to delay or stop response to the least urgent in order to continue responding to the most urgent.

Service oriented agencies (which the vast majority are) don't decline to respond on developing situations because they want to give officers more time to lounge around the donut shop. This serious step isn't taken unless their units are already stacking calls on completed and in progress crimes that have to be given priority.

When you see them unable to dispatch resources to something that may well turn into an in progress situation in a few minutes and require urgent attention and more units than would be needed if it was nipped in the bud, it's a strong indication they're just trying to keep their heads above water until the end of the shift.

The same types of budgetary impacts will be seen in many other areas. For example, roads don't degrade at a rate determined by budget, but the rate you can fix them at is budget dependent. When the rate of pothole development exceeds the repair capacity, you drive on potholed roads.

None of this should come as a surprise. When huge sums of tax dollars are allocated to vote buying giveaways with various catchy names, those resources aren't available to maintain core services.

The spending priorities of the officials we elect to public office have very personal consequences down the line.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#40

Post by jimlongley »

Oldgringo wrote:OTOH, it's unlikely, though possible, that this scenario will occur in rural areas or hunting/fishing/hiking/camping or otherwise 'outdoorsy' locations.

Stay alert, wherever you are, because you just never know...
When I was a NY State Park Policeman, about 100 years ago, well, 40 anyway. we had just such an incident occur in one of our picnic areas.

The nearby city, Albany NY, had a "fresh air program" where they would bus inner city kids out to the park for a day in the sun and pool and such. Poor cleanliness habits and lacking social skills aside, it worked ok most of the time, but there was a small cadre of gang kids who would take the bus out there specifically to prey on the even more defenseless.

In one such situation a family on a picnic in one of the remote spots returned to ther car to find a group of 6 to 8 teenage toughs sitting or lying on the car and using it for a toilet and canvas for art.

In 1971 there were no cell phones, and the park wasn't equipped with a call box, so their options were to hike up to park HQ, or hope that they could flag down a patrol car or cycle. Now we did patrol very often, but even then it was a relatively long and scary situation. At least they had the sense to move back into the picnic area where they had more people around them and wait for us to show up, and when we did the radios crackled to life and thugs ran every which direction. Even on park trails an Electra Glide can make good time.

One of the neat things was that the only way for them to get back to the city was the bus they came up on, or to hitchhike, and since they came out on the bus they had no idea how to get home. And we arrested hithhikers in the park.

That afternoon we just stationed the parents and a couple of patrolmen, myself included, at the buses, and when the BGs were IDed trying to board, we took them into custody.

"Hello, Mrs Soandso? Your child has been detained by the NY State Park Police and unless you come pick him up at Park Police HQ, will be arraigned and deposited at the Albany County Jail where you may make bail." Albany County did not have a really separate juvie facility at the time, just a separate part of the jail.

Of course the parents were never going to come to HQ, where they would have been issued an appearance ticket too, and the jail was on a city bus route, so the kids were arraigned by a Town of New Scotland JP and transported. None of the kids could produce ID showing age either, so they were essentially treated as adults, and a couple of them should have been.

I have no idea what the end results of the cases were. The kids were charged with Assault; (not A&B) Disorderly Conduct; and a couple of other things.

We took to meeting the buses when they came in and frisking the kids, anythign that even remotely resembled a weapon was confiscated and held at HQ until claimed by a parent or guardian. After a period of time all such contraband was transferred to the NY State Police, and if not claimed in (7 years?) eventually destroyed. One or two guns over the course of the summer, numerous switchblades and gravity knives as well as screwdrivers and jackknives. The kids with the guns were arrested.

It was a different world in the 70s.
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#41

Post by PRO »

cubbyjg wrote:The lack of PD support is really disturbing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/polit ... .html?_r=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is no law or statute that requires law enforcement to protect you, anyone else or your property.
The only thing close, is the oath taken upon swearing in.
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#42

Post by Keith B »

PRO wrote:
cubbyjg wrote:The lack of PD support is really disturbing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/polit ... .html?_r=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is no law or statute that requires law enforcement to protect you, anyone else or your property.
The only thing close, is the oath taken upon swearing in.
While legally they don't have to protect you, we as citizens pay the taxes that fund these departments. IMO it is their responsibility to resolve issues like this. I do totally understand that as they cut more and more head count, the days of getting your cat out of the tree or helping you round up your lost dog are gone and will never be back. However, when you have problems with people harassing you or causing property damage, they should take the report and respond within a reasonable amount of time, pending more critical calls, and help rectify the situation.
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#43

Post by cubbyjg »

So the police wont help and if i were to try to get to my car, i run the risk of entering into a confrontation. And if things hit the fan, and i have to use my gun to defend myself, i would be in a heated battle where the court would be asking, why didnt i just stay away. I agree that 8 on 1 does not work to my advantage but it seems either way i get the shaft while the punks continue to be punks.
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#44

Post by dicion »

The idea about calling about a theft in progress is sounding better and better.

Hey, for all I know, the guy sitting on the hood is doing it so no one can see the guy behind him trying to jimmy the lock.
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Re: Protecting Personal Property from Thugs

#45

Post by PRO »

This is one of those situations that each individual must assess and weigh for himself. How much is it worth to you? Will the PD respond in time? Is it worth the risk? While I do believe I have the right to protect my property, is the property worth my life? My family’s financial future?

The best way not to become a victim of a crime is to take precautions to avoid the crime in the first place. Paying for a parking garage with some form of security sounds cheaper than paying for a lawyer, repairing the property or an EMS ride.

We must depend on our intelligence and common sense.
Phil

It is the little people who will suffer from QE2. The buying power of my mothers retirement will decrease by 40%
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