Gun disgorged from holster

[jamullinstx]

Well, the embarrassment and most of the pain has passed since two weeks ago when this incident occurred, so I think I can stand to post it here for the benefit of others. I was on vacation with my family and 2 miniature dachshunds. Our dogs are house and back yard pets, with no idea what it means to run into a busy street. The female, in particular, is fast and prone to darting. At one of the stops to visit family members on the itinerary, I sent my two children outside with the dogs into the back yard, which has a wrought iron fence with spacing between the bars large enough for either of the dogs to escape, but I gave my son explicit instructions to insure that the dogs didn't escape. Well, within 5 minutes the female escaped. I bolted from the house to try to catch her before she ran into the street. I was armed, carrying in a Comp-tac M-Tac holster. I ran into the neighbor's front yard after the dog; had her cornered, when she switched direction back toward the house. I angled at full speed for the street to head her off from entering the busy road. Unfortunately, my center of gravity got ahead of my feet and, that, combined with a slight downhill to the sidewalk had me hurtling to the ground at full speed. I crashed into the sidewalk with my right hand pinned under my body.

Unfortunately, my pistol disgorged from the holster and was laying in the sidewalk-road grassy median. As I got up, I realized that my right hand was broken, and my pistol was on the ground. The neighbor was heading toward me talking into his cell phone. I thought he was calling the police, but couldn't hear any of the conversation. I retrieved the pistol and was trying to reholster it with my broken hand. The conversation went something like this:

Neighbor: "Is that a gun!"
Me: "Yes, I have a valid concealed carry permit for it."
Neighbor: "You can understand why I am concerned when a man runs through my yard with a gun."
Me: "Not really, but I'm visiting my family next door and was trying to catch my dog. I apologize for disturbing you."

I walked away expecting to have to talk to the police shortly. Evidently, he hadn't called the police, because they never arrived. The neighbor's wife did bring up the incident at the neighborhood association that evening to my relative, who is on the board.

Lessons:

• Running with a concealed weapon can be tricky.
  If you come to a sudden stop when running with a weapon, having the retention screws clamped tight in a kydex holster might keep the pistol from flying, but might not.
  I'm rethinking the use of holsters without secondary retention mechanisms, but haven't decided to switch just yet.

Any other advice from the board?

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Knowing what your carry weapon is will help the rest of us make some suggestions.

My favorite holster for my Taurus PT-111B, 9mm, is an OWB Bianchi Carry-Lok, Model 82.
Thanks again to this board's austin_realtor for suggesting it.

I never wanted a holster with a velcro strap or a snap because this would alert bad guys
that my draw was happening. But having an open topped holster w/o a retention device
seemed to be tempting fate: losing the gun during running or bending down.

The Carry Lok Model 82 has a super ingenious retention device which automatically locks
onto your trigger guard when you holster it.

But to unholster the gun, you simply sweep your middle finger across the little lever while
drawing. It's very natural.

Another advantage to this holster is that it is hard, formed leather, so that you can holster and
unholster with one hand.

Good luck in your search for the perfect holster. Hope your hand will be OK.

[ELB]

The M-TAC is an IWB, yes? I have a C_TAC, which is similar, but all Kydex -- never had a problem retaining the gun. I even got on the ground and rolled around to see if it would come loose, and I've done quite a few activities with it. The main retention seems to come from the belt clamping down. I would think if you had your belt at all snug, it would do the same on the M-TAC. I would definitely recheck the screws holding the kydex to the leather.

Which triggers another thought -- has the leather stretched in some way, so the holster no longer really fits the gun?

I'm not a big fan of retention devices on concealed carry guns. (especially trigger guard locks that have to be manipulated with a finger -- sets up for an ND when finger manipulates the trigger coming out of the holster).

Hope your hand heals soon. Did you get a left-handed holster while you heal, or are you practicing cavalry draws?

[Oldgringo]

The problem wasn't the gun, the holster or the neighbor - the problem was the disobedient and/or untrained dog.

BTW, Mrs. Oldgringo and I are animal lovers but we can't abide a dog who won't come when called or ill-mannered kids.

[MrsFosforos]

The only thing I might have done differently (knowing the fence had gaps in it) would have been to take them out on a leash. However, even with that said, if you take the dog out of the equation, the accident could still have happened in a number of other circumstances.

Accidents aren't planned for - this is lesson we can all take to heart considering something like that could happen to any of us.

[timdsmith72]

The problem wasn't the gun, the holster or the neighbor - the problem was the disobedient and/or untrained dog.

BTW, Mrs. Oldgringo and I are animal lovers but we can't abide a dog who won't come when called or ill-mannered kids.

[jamullinstx]

Oldgringo, thanks for your opinion. These are puppies, and still learning. The male catches on more quickly than the female. She'll eventually get it, too, as do all of my many dogs that I've trained over the years. I realize you didn't have all the details to make an informed comment in the direction you went. Nevertheless, your ability to jump to a firm, judgmental conclusion is impressive.

As to the other on topic comments:

• I carry a Beretta Px4, 40 S&W full size, IWB. Trigger guard retention devices are not an option because I carry exclusively IWB due to body build/concealment trade offs.
• Leather holsters rely upon the belt for much of the retention, but kydex does not compress as easily. The provided retention screws give the necessary clamping force to retain the gun. How tight is a balance between ease of draw/reholster and retention. Choosing that balance is personal preference.
• I've rolled around and done many other physical activities while carrying with no issues. I doubt anyone is willing to throw themselves to the ground at full speed onto concrete in an awkward position to test their holster retention under conditions of substantial change of inertia.
• The main advantage of Kydex is the reduced coefficient of friction over all leather. I have other all-leather holsters, and like them too, but like the M-tac holsters precisely for their smooth reholstering combined with the leather sweat/skin bite protection in the summer heat.

I'm torn between two options:

• Tightening down the screws, giving up the more fluid draw and reholstering.
• Disarming briefly when in such a situation

The neighbor's reaction was also interesting because in the state where this happened, not Texas, both open and concealed carry are legal.

[Oldgringo]

jamullinstx wrote:

...your ability to jump to a firm, judgmental conclusion is impressive...

That it is, thank you.

I'm also able to re-think a firm, judgemental conclusion. BTW, were the puppies restrained or otherwise under control?

[particle]

With all due respect, the original post isn't asking for advice on what his children should have done differently to keep the dogs from escaping their captivity. And the problem isn't the dog or careless children (and when I say careless children, I mean those lacking years of experience to formulate possible conclusions like mature adults are capable of) - the dog merely exposed a vulnerability in his setup. He could have just as easily been lunging to stop a shopping cart from rolling in front of an oncoming vehicle (I've done this before, and ended up with a broken foot - but I stopped the cart!).

Jamullinstx, I would think disarming in such a spontaneous / urgent situation is unreasonable. Taking time to remove your weapon and safely secure it wastes valuable time, and possibly leaves your children open to witnessing their beloved pets being hit by oncoming traffic. I usually carry off-body in a Maxpedition Versipack, so I can't really offer any valuable input on your holster situation - just thought the above items were worth mentioning. At the very least, I'd strongly consider tightening the retention screw a bit more, realizing that my desire to ease drawing force sacrificed the security of my weapon to some extent.

[jamullinstx]

My understanding of this forum is to post embarrassing incidents, close calls, etc. in order that others might ponder whether a similar scenario could happen to them. The point of my post was to highlight that under the right circumstances a particular holster design that has performed well under all normal test cases can fail. Like most people, I had tested my kydex/leather hybrid setup by inverting the holster, rolling around, etc., with no issues. The holster retained the firearm in all cases, while providing what I felt to be a reasonable draw/reholster pattern. However, those tests grossly underestimated the forces generated when running full speed comes to an abrupt, immediate stop.

The secondary, less important, purpose was to highlight that even in places in which it is legal to carry a gun in either the open or concealed you will encounter individuals who are disturbed by the presence of an armed person. It is worthwhile to think about how you will defuse the encounter.

All other details of the incident were provided for context.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I can tighten the retention screw on my Comp-Tac holsters so tight it's impossible to get the gun out, but none of them are the M-TAC. Can you tighten it more, and without making it too hard to draw?

Chas.

[jamullinstx]

I'm sure I can, Charles. I'll just have to adjust my idea of how much force is reasonable to draw the weapon.

[FlynJay]

tuck and roll man

The natural reaction is to put your hands out to stop the fall, but that usually ends up with broken hands or wrists. I've fallen out of a golf cart moving at 20 mph onto hard pavement with little more than a scratch on my arm.

You didn't violate any laws so I really don't see how you could have done anything different. Except to prevent the dogs from getting out. If you know they are prone to getting loose keep them tied to something.

[WildBill]

I am still trying to visualize a gun disgorging from a holster.

[jamullinstx]

Originally, I chose the title "Gun discharged from holster", but decided that had a whole different, unintended meaning.

"Ejected" is probably a better choice of word, with the correct connotation, but disgorged was the best I could come up with at the time.