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Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:06 am**

So yesterday I was at my caleeche pit trying out my new Ruger PC Carbine (love it!). When I went back to the pickup to reload there was a bee hanging out at the passenger side window. Sure enough it tagged me on the right forearm! Not sure why bees and wasps are attracted to window glass...
Anyway, I thought ice, benadryl stick, and tylenol! None of which I had in the pickup of course neither did I have my first aid kit.
So, tomorrow I am buying one of those crushed ice packets you can buy at drugstores and adding it along with a benadryl stick and some tylenol to my first aid kit.
I do not have a tourniquet either nor do I know how to use one. A local E.M.T. told me he would be happy to show me how to use one and which one to buy so I think I will call him and set that up.
Just wanted to pass that along in case anybody gets stung by a bee or wasp at the range! And, no, I did not get off a shot at the fleeing bee. :)

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:39 am**

I keep a trama/first aid kit in my range bag..... I keep an identical one at home as well...

Israeli bandages, blood clot powder, tourniquets, all sizes of bandaids, and all of the little packets of creams, aspirin, etc....

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:40 am**

dlh wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:06 am So yesterday I was at my caleeche pit trying out my new Ruger PC Carbine (love it!). When I went back to the pickup to reload there was a bee hanging out at the passenger side window. Sure enough it tagged me on the right forearm! Not sure why bees and wasps are attracted to window glass...
Anyway, I thought ice, benadryl stick, and tylenol! None of which I had in the pickup of course neither did I have my first aid kit.
So, tomorrow I am buying one of those crushed ice packets you can buy at drugstores and adding it along with a benadryl stick and some tylenol to my first aid kit.
I do not have a tourniquet either nor do I know how to use one. A local E.M.T. told me he would be happy to show me how to use one and which one to buy so I think I will call him and set that up.
Just wanted to pass that along in case anybody gets stung by a bee or wasp at the range! And, no, I did not get off a shot at the fleeing bee. :)

TQs are for bleeding out of limb arteries ...

And the only one I trust is SOFTT-W Gen 4. The others are complete garbage, including the popular CAT (unless you are willing to carry 4 because the windlasses are made of plastic and break with alarming frequency)

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:11 pm**

My Dad was deathly allergic to wasp stings. I have not been stung in 40 years so I really don't know what my reaction would be to a sting. I spend time up at my farm and it is a good 30 minutes to the closest medical care. I asked my family Doctor for an Epi-pen and he prescribed it for me. They are very pricey so use goodrx to price shop before you get it filled.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:17 pm**

montgomery wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:40 am
dlh wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:06 am So yesterday I was at my caleeche pit trying out my new Ruger PC Carbine (love it!). When I went back to the pickup to reload there was a bee hanging out at the passenger side window. Sure enough it tagged me on the right forearm! Not sure why bees and wasps are attracted to window glass...
Anyway, I thought ice, benadryl stick, and tylenol! None of which I had in the pickup of course neither did I have my first aid kit.
So, tomorrow I am buying one of those crushed ice packets you can buy at drugstores and adding it along with a benadryl stick and some tylenol to my first aid kit.
I do not have a tourniquet either nor do I know how to use one. A local E.M.T. told me he would be happy to show me how to use one and which one to buy so I think I will call him and set that up.
Just wanted to pass that along in case anybody gets stung by a bee or wasp at the range! And, no, I did not get off a shot at the fleeing bee. :)
TQs are for bleeding out of limb arteries ...

And the only one I trust is SOFTT-W Gen 4. The others are complete garbage, including the popular CAT (unless you are willing to carry 4 because the windlasses are made of plastic and break with alarming frequency)

Yes, I did not mean to imply to use a tourniquet for a bee sting.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 pm**

montgomery wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:40 am
TQs are for bleeding out of limb arteries ...

And the only one I trust is SOFTT-W Gen 4. The others are complete garbage, including the popular CAT (unless you are willing to carry 4 because the windlasses are made of plastic and break with alarming frequency)

I'll echo that the SOFFT-W is a great TQ, especially the newer Gen 4 that incorportes a clip similar to the CAT (this aids in one-handed self application).

However, the CAT is also a great TQ. I believe the issues with the plastic windlass breaking was with the original design, and should not be an issue with any made in the past decade. If you're experiencing windlass breakage, I'd send it back to NAR in a heartbeat. There's a distinct possibility that it's a knock-off Chinese counterfeit.

Current Special Forces medics (18Ds) (as well as the rest of the ODA members) are using both the CAT & the SOFFT-W in operations downrange, and if there were any issues with them they'd know. Both are still recommended by the Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care, in addition to a handful of other TQs approved recently.

I carry both in my range aid bag, in both of our vehicles, & at home. In my humble opinion the CAT is still better for one-handed self application (although the addition of the clip on the Gen 4 SOFFT-W closes this gap significantly), and the SOFFT-W is much more resilient for leg application as there's no Velcro to come undone when dragging the casualty (the CATs strap occasionally isn't long enough to reach the clip to lock in when applied to really large diameter thighs).

I'm an Associate Trainer for TacMed Solutions (maker of the SOFTT-W), so if there was a reason to bash the CAT I might be inclined. However, integrity is more important to me, and evidence-based care practices rule the day.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:50 pm**

Mike S wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 pm
montgomery wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:40 am
If you're experiencing windlass breakage, I'd send it back to NAR in a heartbeat.
If I experienced windlass breakage, I would be too dead in a heartbeat to send it back to NAR. A single breakage in the field is unacceptable, new design or not.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:52 pm**

Mike S wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 pm
montgomery wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:40 am
TQs are for bleeding out of limb arteries ...

And the only one I trust is SOFTT-W Gen 4. The others are complete garbage, including the popular CAT (unless you are willing to carry 4 because the windlasses are made of plastic and break with alarming frequency)
I'll echo that the SOFFT-W is a great TQ, especially the newer Gen 4 that incorportes a clip similar to the CAT (this aids in one-handed self application).

However, the CAT is also a great TQ. I believe the issues with the plastic windlass breaking was with the original design, and should not be an issue with any made in the past decade. If you're experiencing windlass breakage, I'd send it back to NAR in a heartbeat. There's a distinct possibility that it's a knock-off Chinese counterfeit.

Current Special Forces medics (18Ds) (as well as the rest of the ODA members) are using both the CAT & the SOFFT-W in operations downrange, and if there were any issues with them they'd know. Both are still recommended by the Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care, in addition to a handful of other TQs approved recently.

I carry both in my range aid bag, in both of our vehicles, & at home. In my humble opinion the CAT is still better for one-handed self application (although the addition of the clip on the Gen 4 SOFFT-W closes this gap significantly), and the SOFFT-W is much more resilient for leg application as there's no Velcro to come undone when dragging the casualty (the CATs strap occasionally isn't long enough to reach the clip to lock in when applied to really large diameter thighs).

I'm an Associate Trainer for TacMed Solutions (maker of the SOFTT-W), so if there was a reason to bash the CAT I might be inclined. However, integrity is more important to me, and evidence-based care practices rule the day.

No bashing intended, only facts. While both are TCCC, CATs are known for windlass failures. SOFTT-W is not. Case closed.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:05 pm**

montgomery wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:52 pm
Mike S wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 pm
montgomery wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:40 am
TQs are for bleeding out of limb arteries ...

And the only one I trust is SOFTT-W Gen 4. The others are complete garbage, including the popular CAT (unless you are willing to carry 4 because the windlasses are made of plastic and break with alarming frequency)
I'll echo that the SOFFT-W is a great TQ, especially the newer Gen 4 that incorportes a clip similar to the CAT (this aids in one-handed self application).

However, the CAT is also a great TQ. I believe the issues with the plastic windlass breaking was with the original design, and should not be an issue with any made in the past decade. If you're experiencing windlass breakage, I'd send it back to NAR in a heartbeat. There's a distinct possibility that it's a knock-off Chinese counterfeit.

Current Special Forces medics (18Ds) (as well as the rest of the ODA members) are using both the CAT & the SOFFT-W in operations downrange, and if there were any issues with them they'd know. Both are still recommended by the Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care, in addition to a handful of other TQs approved recently.

I carry both in my range aid bag, in both of our vehicles, & at home. In my humble opinion the CAT is still better for one-handed self application (although the addition of the clip on the Gen 4 SOFFT-W closes this gap significantly), and the SOFFT-W is much more resilient for leg application as there's no Velcro to come undone when dragging the casualty (the CATs strap occasionally isn't long enough to reach the clip to lock in when applied to really large diameter thighs).

I'm an Associate Trainer for TacMed Solutions (maker of the SOFTT-W), so if there was a reason to bash the CAT I might be inclined. However, integrity is more important to me, and evidence-based care practices rule the day.
No bashing intended, only facts. While both are TCCC, CATs are known for windlass failures. SOFTT-W is not. Case closed.

I'm not looking to get into a contest of will with you over this. However, can you cite any documented failures from medical sources that the CAT is still experiencing windlass breakage? (I conceed they did initially, but I am not aware of any made in the past decade that are breaking, other than counterfeit ones).

Again, this is a sincere question, not an attempt to debate you.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:33 pm**

And the only one I trust is SOFTT-W Gen 4. The others are complete garbage, including the popular CAT (unless you are willing to carry 4 because the windlasses are made of plastic and break with alarming frequency)

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs but I do think it is narrow-minded to say all TQs other than the SOFTT-W are "garbage". There has already been a concession that early CATs may have had problems but to dismiss the last few generations because of an early failure seems unforgiving. To discount all others seems closed-minded. That is little difference than saying "Glocks are great, all others are junk." because a gun manufacturer had a hiccup with a model.

No bashing intended, only facts. While both are TCCC, CATs are known for windlass failures. SOFTT-W is not. Case closed.

Actually the SOFT-T had a 6% failure rate (vs. 4% of the CAT) at the 2007 NAVSEA Evalutions. One failure was windlass breaking the strap and the other two were the inability to secure the windlass. The CAT had two failures. The windlass broke the strap and the strap ripped out of the canvass. In neither did the windlass break. Regardless, a failure is still a failure.

CoTCCC doesn't recommend junk. They don't even recommend good. They only recommend TQs that pass their stringent testing. Currently there are eight CoTCCC non-pneumatic devices approved. https://books.allogy.com/web/tenant/8/b ... 63343866/

CATs were first introduced into active service in 2005. Since then, they have aged 6 generations. Each generation brought improvements based on findings in combat. Assuming a new generation every other year brings us to the CAT-7.

Below are a couple of articles that discuss the CAT.

CAT Gen 6/Gen 7 Comparison
JSOM Spring 2016 Vol 16 Ed. 1
http://www.combattourniquet.com/wp-cont ... e-Gen7.pdf

Gen 7 has wider windlass with convex grooves and thicker plate (most frequent failure point on exposed TQs in the study below)

Exposed TQs have lower efficacy and higher breakage rates.
MILITARY MEDICINE, 176, 12:1400, 2011

In this study, from 2011*, conducted on Afghan exposed TQs recorded a 8% (14/166) breakage rated compared to unexposed TQs. Age of the TQs were not reported but exposed TQs had been subject to the Afhgan elements for at least 6 months. Of the breakage observed, 12 of 14 broke at the stabilization plate, 1 at the self adhering band, and 1 at the friction adapter (buckle). None broke at the windlass. Again, a failure is still a failure.

*Assuming a new generation every other year since 2005 this would make all the exposed TQs Gen 4 or earlier. If I am allowed to play out this assumption, by Gen 4, according to this research, there were no windlass failures on the exposed TQs and no failures on the unexposed TQs.

The 2012-13 Naval Medical Research Unit San Antonio Final Report found neither the CAT or SOFTT-W broke. Both did their job as did the RMT CBT, RMT TAC, EMT, and MET. The 2015 report backs the 2012 finding up except for the MET failing to meet >80% occlusion. I have not been able to find a more recent JOEFT.

From reading several other sources, including this abstract there is a reasonable suggestion that some of the windlass failures may have been due to not pulling the strap tight enough initially thus requiring the applicator to over tighten the windlass in an effort to occlude blood flow. I will admit this is my own theory and, to my knowledge, does not have any research supporting it.

Without more detailed study or research I feel that North C-A-T Resources, LLC has figured out the windlass problems, if they in fact really existed, and remedied them. I have not found any research or documented findings that real CAT TQs have a significant issue with windlass failure. CAT Myth

Here is my documentation, albeit non-exhaustive and certainly incomplete, to support that CAT tourniquets are not "garbage". I look forward to yours.

With that, you, I, and anyone else, can choose the TQ of their researched choice. I recommend to stay away from counterfeit TQs as there is documentation of windlass and other failures.

I carry chewable children's Benadryl in the first aid kit for stings and other allergies.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:03 pm**

On active duty I was annually certified as a Combat Life Saver (keep 'em alive 'til the real medics show up). My family has attended Stop The Bleed. I've taken Lonestar Medic's 2-day Medicine X. Based on my training and experience, my family carries SOFTT-W Gen4 or CAT Gen7 based on personal preference. I'm fine with either. We each must do our own due diligence and decide for ourselves.

My IFAK and range bag also have Diphenhydramine Hcl and low-dose aspirin.

The real key is to get quality training such as Lonestar Medics, Dark Angle, and American Red Cross. We are much more likely to use our first aid tools and skills than we are to use our self defense tools and skills.

Posted: **Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:46 am**

I would just put up a sign that says "Bee Free Zone."

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