TexasCHLforum.com

I think it's been awhile since we've had this debate.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... e-defense/

I notice the writer is a Sheriff... if he carried a shotgun on patrol, what did he have it loaded with?

I live out in the country so "over-penetration" is not a problem for me. I keep my Mossberg and Winchester 12 gauge shotguns well-fed with low-recoil double-ought buck.

After reading the FBI analysis of the Miami shoot out, I load my Ithaca 37 12ga with #4 buckshot!

I use bird shot for its designated use. BIRDS!!
If I ever have birds invade my home I will remove the #1 buck and shoot them, with bird shot. Since I don't live where Alfred Hitchcock filmed his movie, I will expect that any invaders will be larger, have solid bones, and will be more determined to cause me harm. Therefore they will face a round of #1 buck shot, followed by more rounds, of #1,#0,#00, or #000 buck if he is still on the attack. I can also quickly transition to a slug, if these rounds don't convince him that his chosen profession, was a bad choice.

Those who worry more about the potential of over penetration, than stopping the threat, should probably rely on pepper spray, or some other non-lethal deterrent. Bad guys don't enter your home, with a firearm, and concern themselves with whether or not their rounds will hit people behind walls. Shot placement is key in any HD situation.

Nearly all wall penetration tests, are performed with shots fired at a perpendicular angle, tests performed at any oblique angle show that wall studs, door frames, etc., are very effective at preventing over penetration. Also, in all of the HD shootings, I have heard about, there have been no innocent victims shot by the homeowner.

Everyone can make their own choices, but I am not going to risk my survival, or that of my family on what I consider to be an under performing load. JMHO

cyphertext wrote:I notice the writer is a Sheriff... if he carried a shotgun on patrol, what did he have it loaded with?

The article stated that he carried 00 buck in his patrol car and birdshot in his home defense shotgun. It also stated that the shooter is entirely responsible for everything and anything they shoot, no matter their good intentions. I personally witnessed a similar test/demonstration and that convinced me that birdshot inside the home is macho enough for defense and it is the intelligent choice for home defense. As far as hearing or knowing of an innocent being seriously shot or killed by friendly fire from a home defense shotgun, I don't know of any but I don't want to be the first when birdshot has proven to be more than efficient to stop a threat inside the home.

twomillenium wrote:

cyphertext wrote:I notice the writer is a Sheriff... if he carried a shotgun on patrol, what did he have it loaded with?

The article stated that he carried 00 buck in his patrol car and birdshot in his home defense shotgun. It also stated that the shooter is entirely responsible for everything and anything they shoot, no matter their good intentions. I personally witnessed a similar test/demonstration and that convinced me that birdshot inside the home is macho enough for defense and it is the intelligent choice for home defense. As far as hearing or knowing of an innocent being seriously shot or killed by friendly fire from a home defense shotgun, I don't know of any but I don't want to be the first when birdshot has proven to be more than efficient to stop a threat inside the home.

Pull the other one.

How many hogs has he taken with birdshot?

twomillenium wrote:

cyphertext wrote:I notice the writer is a Sheriff... if he carried a shotgun on patrol, what did he have it loaded with?

The article stated that he carried 00 buck in his patrol car and birdshot in his home defense shotgun. It also stated that the shooter is entirely responsible for everything and anything they shoot, no matter their good intentions. I personally witnessed a similar test/demonstration and that convinced me that birdshot inside the home is macho enough for defense and it is the intelligent choice for home defense. As far as hearing or knowing of an innocent being seriously shot or killed by friendly fire from a home defense shotgun, I don't know of any but I don't want to be the first when birdshot has proven to be more than efficient to stop a threat inside the home.

Anything that will penetrate enough to hit vitals will go through sheet rock. Birdshot fails to penetrate to the FBI's recommended depth in ballistic gel to hit vitals... therefor birdshot is a poor choice for defense.

IMO, birdshot meets the minimum criteria for self defense. You have a gun that will fire and you ought to actually hit your attacker. Beyond that, I think there are better choices for ammo selection. Just shooting and hitting your attacker will end the fight in most self defense encounters. However, there are many where drugged up or determined criminals will continue to attack after getting shot. I don't want relatively underpowered ammo.

As others have said, I want my defensive ammunition to be capable of enough penetration to cause significant injury to life (and threat) sustaining structures and organs in an attacker's body. Birdshot is simply less capable of doing this than what I prefer to load the defense shotguns with.

MechAg94 wrote:IMO, birdshot meets the minimum criteria for self defense. You have a gun that will fire and you ought to actually hit your attacker. Beyond that, I think there are better choices for ammo selection. Just shooting and hitting your attacker will end the fight in most self defense encounters. However, there are many where drugged up or determined criminals will continue to attack after getting shot. I don't want relatively underpowered ammo.

This is where I would land. I'd use birdshot all day long if it was what I had at hand, in that it would send a large percentage of attackers fleeing without question. However, I would feel less than comfortable planning ahead of time to use birdshot. Plenty of cases can be made for smaller pistols, etc. because of the smaller form factor. For any given shotgun that is a harder sale. Other than a shotgun that simply will not pattern a smaller buckshot, I would lean towards the 4 or 2 buck.

I would shoot a home invader with a .22......if that's all I had available. I would shoot a home invader with birdshot.......if that's all I had available.


Fortunately, that isn't all I have available, and I'm not about to hamstring myself unnecessarily. BTW, I don't much care how macho a particular shotgun load is; I care about how terminally effective it is. If I cared about "macho", I'd load nothing but slugs. Instead, I load #1 buckshot. Also, I have helped deliver medical care to people who have been shot with birdshot, and with buckshot. Birdshot is often not nearly effective enough to stop someone........"stopping" them through incapacitation being the key. I don't want a person to stop because they simply gave up. That person may rediscover their will to fight. I want the person to be unable to resume the fight. Whether or not he chooses to lay down and die is up to him, but whether or not he can choose to fight is up to me. I'm taking that off the table, by not limiting myself to birdshot.

In any event, my shotgun isn't even my frontline home defense choice, even though it would make a fine choice. I keep a suppressed .300 Blk SBR loaded with subsonics for that purpose; followed by either a 9mm pistol or a shotgun, depending on circumstances, if I need to go loud.

Home defense is a subjective thing, simply because the layout of everyone's home is different, there are different numbers of people in the home at any given time, and everyone's, mind set and physical abilities are different.
I have practiced, walk through scenarios, for every imaginable home invasion/burglary, type scenario in my house, different potential entry points, number of actors, location of HD weapons, family members, pets, etc. I have tried to figure out where everyone in my house would be at almost any given time in a 24 hour period. I have also tried to realistically determine what my best strategy would be for confronting a threat in both daytime and nighttime situations.
My reaction time, as most everyone else's would be slower, waking from a deep sleep. Darkness, plays a big role in how I would be able to identify, and act upon a threat. My choice of self defense weapon may also be different depending on these factors.

I don't know if there is any way, you can possibly plan for every possible scenario, but I have tried to cover as many as I can think of.

Criminals, entering my home, and threatening my family's safety, and security, is a terrifying prospect, for many reasons, but for me, it is the thought that I may have to react with deadly force to protect myself. That is not something I ever want to have happen, but, I feel that going through these things in my head, planning, and physically clearing my home, finding static points to defend myself, identifying available cover, and concealment spots, and mentally preparing myself for that eventuality, gives me much more peace of mind. JMHO