The prodigal returns home!

[Charles L. Cotton]

Well, perhaps I should have said the "prodigal contemplates going back home." Maybe "prodigal heads in the direction of home."

I bought a CZ75 Compact PCR (9mm) a few months ago and installed the Cajun Gun Works Pro Kit. I love the gun! It has been 100% reliable and I shoot it well, very well in fact. It has a 14 rd mag. and I carry one extra mag. With the Cajun Gun Works Pro Kit, it's a different gun from the factory original which was itself a very good gun. I've been carrying it for about 3 or 4 months and I have no complaints, other than severe holster wear on a part of the frame.

Now, I'm probably going back to a 1911 45ACP as my EDC. The video I posted dealing with "shoot until the threat is over" got me to thinking about it. A conversation today with my buddy who was a HPD SWAT instructor and team leader for 26 years pretty much finalized my decision. I still believe that the ballistics of modern self-defense ammo shows little to no difference between .45ACP and 9mm. My SWAT buddy confirmed this based upon attending numerous autopsies to see how the bullets they are using perform. However, and this is a big however, he also said that anecdotal information obtained from officers involved in shootings, as well as his own gun fights, show that a subject does "go down" faster when hit with bigger bullets (a/k/a .45ACP).

One thing stood out in the video I posted and in countless others I have seen. The attacker very rarely goes down quickly when shot with a handgun. In fact, most run and some even run and return fire after being hit. Candidly, this wasn't news to me; I've known this for years. However, seeing it unfold live drives the message home much better than merely the spoken word or reading reports. I don't care about the finer points of tissue damage, wound tracks and autopsy reports. I want to stop a violent attacker from killing me or other innocent people. I don't care if an ME can no longer tell what caliber round killed someone based upon tissue damage in the wound channel and must wait until he/she finds the bullet. I do care about Mark's statement that bad guys go down faster when hit with larger rounds. That information came from real gun fights, real gun fighters and real results.

The reason I decided to go with a CZ Compact for EDC was greater mag capacity (14 rds) in view of the greatly increased threat of multiple attackers. I could have done the same with something like an STI 2011 in .45ACP, but it would have felt like a boat anchor on my hip. (I have an all steel Government Para Ordnance 45ACP that carries 15 rounds and weighs 51.32 oz.) So the only practical way to get that greater capacity was to go with a 9mm.

I felt my decision was somewhat bolstered by much of the recent reporting about various law enforcement agencies switching to a 9mm from .40S&W or .357SIG. The theory is that LEO hit percentages hover in the low to mid 20%, so it's better for officers to have more rounds. While that argument makes sense, it institutionalizes the "spray and pray" approach to gun fighting. I've never been on that team and I'm not joining it now! When talking to my SWAT buddy about capacity v. multiple attacker scenarios he smiled and said "do what I do. Carry extra mags. [.45ACP] and don't miss." He wasn't joking; don't miss. That means stand and deliver accurate fire. Don't duck, run and spray hoping not only to get one or two rounds out of 15 not only on target, but in a location that will stop the threat from shooting at you. How do you do that? You practice using realistic scenarios.

I'm not trying to start a never-ending "light and fast v. big and slow" argument that no one can win. I'm just giving the basis for my decision to return to a .45ACP as an EDC handgun. I'm also not trying to get anyone else to follow in my shoes. I'm doing what's best for me, not advocating a one-size-fits-all approach.

Chas.

[WildBill]

Thanks for your post Charles ... and let me know if you want to sell me your CZ.

[1911 10MM]

I alternate between 10mm and .45 ACP. .45 ACP ARE 230 Gr HSTs and my 10mm are 200 Gr Underwoods traveling at 1250 FPS. I won't carry anything less and wear cargo pants most of the time to carry two spare mags.

[WhoWouldGuess]

Is that the 14-45 model? I wish they still manufactured that!

[Charles L. Cotton]

Is that the 14-45 model? I wish they still manufactured that!

If you are talking about my Para Ordnance, it is a Para frame with a Caspian slide, Ed Brown internals and a Wilson barrel. When I had it built, Para didn't make guns, only frames. I had it built to use is USPSA matches. This is back when we thought a .45ACP made enough gas for a comp to function. Later, I had a new barrel and slide fitted to use as a limited gun.

Chas.

[carlson1]

Thanks for the posting Mr. Cotton. As you and I have talked about recently that is the very reason I went back to my 1911. I had these two thoughts.
1. I am not responding to dangerous situations anymore.
2. All guns run out of ammo sometime so just carry extra magazines.

Recently I competed in a match (it has been many years since I have) and I used my 1911. It was funny because on one of the sets the instructor said about one of the hits, "this counts because the hole is larger and if you were using a 9mm it would have not counted." I know it was just a paper target, but I have to admit I like the bigger holes in paper.

[JRG]

I hear what you are saying Charles and I agree. I have pretty much stopped carrying my J-frame 642 as my only weapon due to only 5 shots. I upped it to an XD Mod 2 sub compact 9mm that allows 13 or 16 rounds. However, I now am searching for a new S&W Shield in 45 ACP. That will give me 7+1 with the extended mag. I'm thinking about getting several more extended mags and carrying at least one or two at all times with the Shield. I have never had a 45 before, but do not want to feel under gunned any longer.

Joe

[flowrie]

Also have been thinking about switching from a Shield 9mm to my
S&W MP45c, 8+1 and two 8 rd mags, less weight than my 1911.
That's 25 total rounds ( 1/2 of a box).
With the current political climate and potential for civil disturbance ( I sincerely hope not ) it has been on my mind.
If I am on my own, the 9mm is OK, I can probably run, but while with the wife and kid then running may not be an easy option. I just feel better and have more confidence in a 45 in that situation.

[Soap]

So your source said 45 seems to perform slightly better? Maybe it is so. Did he also tell you how many times his officers MISS when they're in these "gun fights"? If they perform with littler difference I would rather have a higher capacity. Statistically officers miss more than civilians but that is due to the type of engagements we come across. A civies is usually different than an Officers. No one wants to reload while being shot at and its not realistic for civilians. You also do want to DUCK. This SWAT says don't duck? I'm sure he has a plate carrier on. Get off the X. I would rather have capacity on my side, or my rifle.

BTW I carry 15+1 and a 20 round back up mag.

[LTUME1978]

Charles,

Good comments. This is something that I have wrestled with for some time (have always liked my 45 ACP pistols). I have taken several classes with Paul Howe (CSAT). He tells us to use what we can shoot accurately (he has high standards for that and we learn why in the classes) but go bigger if you can shoot it well (he likes the 357 Sig). Several of the classes I have taken are heavy in LEO attendance. More than a few of the SWAT officers carry 1911's. They are teased that the pistols are always half unloaded at best (as compared to a polymer pistol) but they like them for the same reason as Mark.

I have both 9mm and 45 ACP. My hand loads for my 9mm are well above IDPA power factor (147 grain bullet at 920 feet per second) and I also run my 45 ACP IDPA loads well above power factor. I bought some Speer 124 +P Gold Dots for my 9mm and tested them in my M&P 9 full size. Those things have much higher recoil than my practice/match loads and feel as stiff as my 45 ACP loads. Point I am trying to make is that if you are shooting standard 115 grain 9mm or IDPA loads and have not experimented extensively with your carry ammo running fast paced drills, you may be in for a surprise. Google Dave Spaulding's 2 X 2 X 2 drill and try it first with regular 9mm ammo then your +P carry ammo and you will see what I mean.

Dave Spaulding has a lot of information on bullet performance in gun fights with modern 9mm ammo. He has a two part You Tube video on this and presents bullets taken from autopsies.

This is a tough issue for each of us to sort through. Mark is right about hitting your target. The advanced classes we went through at CSAT were set up as real world to really drive home that accuracy must come before speed (both for the precision of the shot you may have to take as well as the need to take the time for proper target discretion). These classes will show how the speed that competition pushes for may get you in a bad way in the real world (I know because I went too fast and tagged an undercover LEO target once in each of the advanced classes I took because I failed to do proper target discretion).

Lots to think about that should be driven by a lot of range time. Mark told me that he would often get to shoot 500 rounds a day at department expense. Few of us have that luxury to get in that much practice. I am glad that some of our LEO does.

[G.A. Heath]

So your source said 45 seems to perform slightly better? Maybe it is so. Did he also tell you how many times his officers MISS when they're in these "gun fights"? If they perform with littler difference I would rather have a higher capacity. Statistically officers miss more than civilians but that is due to the type of engagements we come across. A civies is usually different than an Officers. No one wants to reload while being shot at and its not realistic for civilians. You also do want to DUCK. This SWAT says don't duck? I'm sure he has a plate carrier on. Get off the X. I would rather have capacity on my side, or my rifle.

Ooooo, Caliber wars!
I will admit that I tend to carry single stack pistols, mostly because I shoot the platform better or it conceals better depending on my particular situation at the time. I Carry a 9mm as much as I carry a 45, and I carry a 10mm almost as much as I carry a 9mm. I can see folks making one claim or another but in the end it's a personal choice.

As for the don't duck vs duck/spray and pray, it's a matter of training and experience. Col. Jeff Cooper would gladly support the stand and deliver Approach, and he would add you should fight your way to the threat in order to ensure it was eliminated. Many folks base their tactics on TV and Movies, but in real life car doors do not stop bullets very often (if ever) and what most people think of as cover is nothing more than concealment. I have talked to those who have been in real gun fights, I hate to say it but gun fights are not nice orderly events where people take turns popping up from cover and shooting in the general direction of their opponent. If your target is untrained and thinks this is the way to fight and your waiting for him to pop up from behind his cover/concealment you will end the gun fight before he can aim and put one where it counts.

[Soap]

So your source said 45 seems to perform slightly better? Maybe it is so. Did he also tell you how many times his officers MISS when they're in these "gun fights"? If they perform with littler difference I would rather have a higher capacity. Statistically officers miss more than civilians but that is due to the type of engagements we come across. A civies is usually different than an Officers. No one wants to reload while being shot at and its not realistic for civilians. You also do want to DUCK. This SWAT says don't duck? I'm sure he has a plate carrier on. Get off the X. I would rather have capacity on my side, or my rifle.

Ooooo, Caliber wars!
I will admit that I tend to carry single stack pistols, mostly because I shoot the platform better or it conceals better depending on my particular situation at the time. I Carry a 9mm as much as I carry a 45, and I carry a 10mm almost as much as I carry a 9mm. I can see folks making one claim or another but in the end it's a personal choice.

As for the don't duck vs duck/spray and pray, it's a matter of training and experience. Col. Jeff Cooper would gladly support the stand and deliver Approach, and he would add you should fight your way to the threat in order to ensure it was eliminated. Many folks base their tactics on TV and Movies, but in real life car doors do not stop bullets very often (if ever) and what most people think of as cover is nothing more than concealment. I have talked to those who have been in real gun fights, I hate to say it but gun fights are not nice orderly events where people take turns popping up from cover and shooting in the general direction of their opponent. If your target is untrained and thinks this is the way to fight and your waiting for him to pop up from behind his cover/concealment you will end the gun fight before he can aim and put one where it counts.

I don't care what caliber you use. I just want capacity. I already carry just about a full size heavy gun. If I decided to carry a 45 I'd want more capcity. I might go crazy and even carry the FNX45 tactical.

[G.A. Heath]

So your source said 45 seems to perform slightly better? Maybe it is so. Did he also tell you how many times his officers MISS when they're in these "gun fights"? If they perform with littler difference I would rather have a higher capacity. Statistically officers miss more than civilians but that is due to the type of engagements we come across. A civies is usually different than an Officers. No one wants to reload while being shot at and its not realistic for civilians. You also do want to DUCK. This SWAT says don't duck? I'm sure he has a plate carrier on. Get off the X. I would rather have capacity on my side, or my rifle.

Ooooo, Caliber wars!
I will admit that I tend to carry single stack pistols, mostly because I shoot the platform better or it conceals better depending on my particular situation at the time. I Carry a 9mm as much as I carry a 45, and I carry a 10mm almost as much as I carry a 9mm. I can see folks making one claim or another but in the end it's a personal choice.

As for the don't duck vs duck/spray and pray, it's a matter of training and experience. Col. Jeff Cooper would gladly support the stand and deliver Approach, and he would add you should fight your way to the threat in order to ensure it was eliminated. Many folks base their tactics on TV and Movies, but in real life car doors do not stop bullets very often (if ever) and what most people think of as cover is nothing more than concealment. I have talked to those who have been in real gun fights, I hate to say it but gun fights are not nice orderly events where people take turns popping up from cover and shooting in the general direction of their opponent. If your target is untrained and thinks this is the way to fight and your waiting for him to pop up from behind his cover/concealment you will end the gun fight before he can aim and put one where it counts.

I don't care what caliber you use. I just want capacity. I already carry just about a full size heavy gun. If I decided to carry a 45 I'd want more capcity. I might go crazy and even carry the FNX45 tactical.

If you really want capacity Keltec has the PMR-30, two spare magazines and one in the pipe would have you carrying 91 rounds of ammo... Somehow I doubt that you would carry a .22mag due to a number of reasons such as reliability of ammo, and the overall effectiveness (even though it could be argued that .22LR has killed more people than 9mm and .45 auto combined).

[dlh]

Famed Texas Ranger Joaquin Jackson wrote in one of his books that he gave up on the .45 FMJ and switched over to hollow-points as he thought they had better stopping power against bad guys after he shot a bad guy with an FMJ and the bad guy kept charging.

One of my buddies has a Glock 30 in .45 ACP and swears by it. Will have to check it out. Love my Glock 26 though.

[rbwhatever1]

Good post. My family carries 45ACP 1911's exclusively. Stocking ammo & parts is much easier for that day when they all arrive back home permanently to enjoy watching or hearing about the chaos from hand cranked / solar powered radios with an M4 & 12 gauge glued to their bodies 24/7...