Page 1 of 2
How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:20 pm
by Crash
I know that the answer to this is probably subjective, i.e., "defense-accurate" is whatever the individual considers it to be, but I'd like to get some opinions, anyway. The reason I'm asking is that I have an FNS-9 that fits me just fine, has fired 550 rounds with 8 different types of ammo (ball and HP) mixed in 3 different magazines with nary a failure, but I can't get it to shoot better than about a 5" group, off-hand, in timed fire, at 15 yards. That shooting was with Fed HST 124 gr HP (non-+P), Speer GD 124 gr HP (+P), Hornady 124 gr XTP HP (non+P), and Winchester SXZ 115 GR HP (non+P). I wouldn't claim to be the best shot in the world, but I've shot better than that with several other handguns, so I know it can't all be me. I'm going to try several more types of ammo to see if it will do better with another type, but I would like to know what other folks think is acceptable "defense-accuracy" off-hand, timed fire, at 15 yards.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Crash
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:34 pm
by WTR
I believe that pistol is double action only. If so don't compare it to a single action pull. May not be a thing wrong with the pistol that practice and finger placement might cure.
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:43 pm
by AJSully421
I would say 5" at 15 yards is just fine.
Remember... one ragged hole when shooting paper is great to show off to the other folks at the range. In reality, you put two in a bad guy's chest, and both are right together and make one hole, you might as well not fire the second shot. When shooting at people, you want a little bit of space between the hits to cause more total damage and get that guy out of the fight.
Also, distance deletes skill, and stress screws everything up. If you can shoot one ragged hole at 25 yards at the range, then you can probably make a head shot on a bad guy running around the mall with body armor on running an AK-47 like it's a bullet hose at 25 - 30 yards.
No matter what, always keep practicing.
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:28 am
by TexasCajun
For off-hand, 5" at 15yds timed is pretty good. Some of the classes I've taken consider rapid shots within an 8" or 9" circle at 7-ish yards to be adequate. Others consider any hit in the center-mass area of a humanoid target to be effective. I try to train smaller than what I've learned in classes, using a smaller target at farther distance under the same time constraints.
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:17 am
by hovercat
For defense, reliability counts more than pinpoint accuracy IMO.
Best would be having someone with a Ransom rest test fire it to see what the pistol is capable of.
Or ask a friend who shoots well to give it their best try. It may be a quirk of the grips/angle / an extra quarter inch that your finger has to reach to pull the trigger.
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:04 am
by Crash
Thanks to all for your input--I appreciate it. I will have the bore slugged, try some more types of ammo, and shoot it off a rest (which will have to be at 25 yards at our range) and see what happens. And yes, reliability trumps pinpoint accuracy every time and that's what I really like about the gun.
Cheers,
Crash
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:20 am
by Bitter Clinger
AJSully421 wrote:I would say 5" at 15 yards is just fine.
Remember... one ragged hole when shooting paper is great to show off to the other folks at the range. In reality, you put two in a bad guy's chest, and both are right together and make one hole, you might as well not fire the second shot. When shooting at people, you want a little bit of space between the hits to cause more total damage and get that guy out of the fight.
Also, distance deletes skill, and stress screws everything up. If you can shoot one ragged hole at 25 yards at the range, then you can probably make a head shot on a bad guy running around the mall with body armor on running an AK-47 like it's a bullet hose at 25 - 30 yards.
No matter what, always keep practicing.
Yup, his results sound pretty darn "combat accurate" IMHO!
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:35 am
by bblhd672
What results do you get shooting the same gun/ammo/distances/times with your strong hand?
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:48 am
by Pawpaw
Keep in mind also that the vast majority of deadly force encounters we, as non LEOs, are likely to encounter will be at "bad breath range". If you're 15 yards apart, you should probably be running to cover. The punk on the other end most likely can't hit a school bus at 15 yards, if it's moving.
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:14 am
by JALLEN
When I bought my Sig 226 Navy some years ago, one of those special runs Sig did, I had a hard time shooting accurately. This was one of the most admired pistols ever made, used by SEALS, SAS, law enforcement, etc. How could this be? I had no training since military days, no real experience, but how hard could it be?
I drove the guys at the LGS nuts, worried myself to a frazzle, fiddled with sight pushers, got advice from most of the other IDPA shooters in the group, etc. and somebody told me to talk to Bruce Gray, a Sig shooting team guy and gun smith par excellence then in Sacramento. Gray holds weekend schools among other things. I sent him my pistol to work on, trigger work, change sights, etc. When I showed up for one of his weekend schools, he was ringing the steel at 50 yards very consistently with it. It wasn't the pistol!
Over the next few years, I attended 3 or 4 weekend shooting schools of his. He preaches trigger control, lots of dry firing. "Shooting is dry firing with noise." I'm still not Lone Ranger accurate but my shooting improved enormously. It turns out that's what my SEAL buddies did and suggested. A couple of hundred dry fire a day, concentrating on trigger prep and control, does wonders.
Some have natural ability, talent. Like golfers, the rest of us benefit from training with a competent teacher, and retraining, too.
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:26 am
by Ryan
hovercat wrote:For defense, reliability counts more than pinpoint accuracy IMO.
Best would be having someone with a Ransom rest test fire it to see what the pistol is capable of.
Or ask a friend who shoots well to give it their best try. It may be a quirk of the grips/angle /
Code: Select all
[code]an extra quarter inch that your finger has to reach to pull the trigger[/u][/i][/b].[/quote]
THIS made a huge difference for me. I put an Infinity interchangeable trigger on my EDC 1911 that I can switch out the trigger from long, medium, short, either in curved or flat. As soon as I went from the factory long curved to the medium length curved, my accuracy improved quite a bit. So any number of things can help or hurt your accuracy. I know that doesn't answer your ammo question, but these little things do make a big difference.
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:38 am
by Soccerdad1995
TexasCajun wrote:For off-hand, 5" at 15yds timed is pretty good. Some of the classes I've taken consider rapid shots within an 8" or 9" circle at 7-ish yards to be adequate. Others consider any hit in the center-mass area of a humanoid target to be effective. I try to train smaller than what I've learned in classes, using a smaller target at farther distance under the same time constraints.
I am happy if my carry guns can get 6 of 9 rounds in the zero down area of an IDPA target at 15 yards, with the other 3 in the -1 area. An IDPA target has a zero down circle that is 8 inches in diameter, so yes if I could get the entire mag in a 5 inch circle at that distance I would be completely fine with that. As others have noted, an actual shooting situation will likely be at closer distances, but with a lot more stress involved. So try to introduce stress as much as you can (IDPA is good for that) and practice until everything becomes muscle memory.
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:45 am
by vjallen75
Crash wrote:Thanks to all for your input--I appreciate it. I will have the bore slugged, try some more types of ammo, and shoot it off a rest (which will have to be at 25 yards at our range) and see what happens. And yes, reliability trumps pinpoint accuracy every time and that's what I really like about the gun.
Cheers,
Crash
Crash,
I have the same firearm and have the same "issue." The more I use it the better I know I will become.
I am curious as to how you like the Hornady 124 gr, I bought some a while ago but have yet to test it at the range.
Re: How Accurate is "Defense-Accurate"?
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:54 pm
by Crash
vjallen75 wrote:Crash wrote:Thanks to all for your input--I appreciate it. I will have the bore slugged, try some more types of ammo, and shoot it off a rest (which will have to be at 25 yards at our range) and see what happens. And yes, reliability trumps pinpoint accuracy every time and that's what I really like about the gun.
Cheers,
Crash
Crash,
I have the same firearm and have the same "issue." The more I use it the better I know I will become.
I am curious as to how you like the Hornady 124 gr, I bought some a while ago but have yet to test it at the range.
vjallen75,
Actually, the Hornady was the most accurate of the group. And, as I stated, I've had no reliability problems with any ammo, so now I'm trying to choose a carry ammo based on accuracy.
Crash