Selling Firearms

[JMod45]

So I am somewhat new into the gun buying/selling market. I know you can sell guns to an individual, which if shipping requires you to go through a FFL. How do you sell to another individual when meeting face to face? I know most people on this forum specify that you must have a CHL/LTC, and I like this idea, as I don't have the ability nor the desire to run background checks. What else is involved in selling a firearm in order to make sure everything is above board and legal?

If it matters, I plan on being on the selling end of this particular question.

[Soccerdad1995]

Legally, you do not need to see anything. Since it is illegal to buy a gun in Texas if you are not a Texas resident, a lot of people ask to see a Texas drivers license.

You could also go the extra step of asking to see a valid LTC if you want to be extra safe. But this will limit your pool of potential buyers.

A bill of sale is optional. It is a hassle and requires both parties to give up personal info, but it does protect the buyer in the event that the weapon is stolen, and also provides a paper trail for the seller if the gun turns up at a crime scene or something.

In my experience, I'd say that almost everyone likes to see a valid Texas DL from the buyer. Less than 25% of folks require a LTC, and about the same percentage requires the use of a bill of sale.

[mrvmax]

I've said it before here but it still boggles my mind that people are against the govt making more requirements for buying firearms yet those same people are their own stipulations when selling. As long as you are not aware that the buyer is prohibited then why ask for LTC? Why exactly do you make that a requirement? Ask them if they can legally own the firearm, if they say yes then sell it if they say no then don't. I guess it gives people a piece of mind and I know people get paranoid about selling a firearm then that firearm being used in a crime. I'm just not convinced it would ever be an issue. BTW, in no way am I saying to sell to anyone that is prohibited from buying firearms, that should never happen. I guess if you want to be sure you can do the transaction through an FFL.

[Liberty]

I've said it before here but it still boggles my mind that people are against the govt making more requirements for buying firearms yet those same people are their own stipulations when selling. As long as you are not aware that the buyer is prohibited then why ask for LTC?

I am one of those who are against the govt making more requirements for buying firearms. But would prefer to sell any of my guns to people with an LTC. I don't like the government telling me what I have to do. I want to make my own choices and not have the government make those choices for me. I also want to feel good about the person who happens to buy my gun from me. Someone with a CHL is someone who belongs to the club I would feel better about it.

I also wouldn't sell a puppy to just anyone either.

[mrvmax]

I've said it before here but it still boggles my mind that people are against the govt making more requirements for buying firearms yet those same people are their own stipulations when selling. As long as you are not aware that the buyer is prohibited then why ask for LTC?

I am one of those who are against the govt making more requirements for buying firearms. But would prefer to sell any of my guns to people with an LTC. I don't like the government telling me what I have to do. I want to make my own choices and not have the government make those choices for me. I also want to feel good about the person who happens to buy my gun from me. Someone with a CHL is someone who belongs to the club I would feel better about it.

I also wouldn't sell a puppy to just anyone either.

Most people are probably similar, if I were not an FFL I would ask them a few questions and depending upon how they answered I would sell it to them if I felt they were not prohibited. Currently it's up to the individual on how they want to handle it. I have had people that wanted a photocopy of my CHL and I don't see the need for that.

[goose]

I've said it before here but it still boggles my mind that people are against the govt making more requirements for buying firearms yet those same people are their own stipulations when selling. As long as you are not aware that the buyer is prohibited then why ask for LTC? Why exactly do you make that a requirement? Ask them if they can legally own the firearm, if they say yes then sell it if they say no then don't. I guess it gives people a piece of mind and I know people get paranoid about selling a firearm then that firearm being used in a crime. I'm just not convinced it would ever be an issue. BTW, in no way am I saying to sell to anyone that is prohibited from buying firearms, that should never happen. I guess if you want to be sure you can do the transaction through an FFL.

Agreed. I don't want my contact information written in someone's notebook that they keep handy so that when their house gets broken into the bad guys now have a documented list of who else's house to check for valuables. I suppose if someone wants to look at my LTC I'd be okay with it. I wonder if the seller will be okay if I have a stickie note over the street name of my address.

[rotor]

This has been debated many times on this forum. The advantage of selling to a LTC holder is that they have had a background check (but must be 21). Must be a Texas resident to buy a gun, someone not prohibited from owning a gun, 18 for long gun and handgun as long as a private party sale, must not be intoxicated, and must not intend to commit a crime with the weapon. Federal law is different but you are talking private sale.
Bill of Sale is up to you. Texasguntraders.com has a good one to download if you want one. If you require a LTC than you are limiting sale to 21 and older but you increase the safety margin of the sale..
I personally won't buy from someone without a Bill of Sale but that's my choice and please don't bother to argue with me about it. To me if the seller is not willing to provide a "chain of command" paperwork for the firearm I don't want to bother meeting with him. I don't sell guns so I have never had to deal with that option but it is basically the same. I personally don't trust a seller that won't Bill of Sale and when I do purchase a gun from someone that I have never met before I go to a public place and my wife is present in the car and is armed. Perhaps even a police station is a good idea. There are a lot of dishonest people out there so be careful. Almost all of my private purchases have been through texasguntraders.com. You can see how long they have been members (the longer the better) and you can map where they really are. Some people say Dallas and they are really in Florida trying a scam. I personally have had nothing but good experiences with my purchases from private individuals but there are always horror stories just like Craigslist.
IANL but I believe what I have said is legally correct.

[Soccerdad1995]

This has been debated many times on this forum. The advantage of selling to a LTC holder is that they have had a background check (but must be 21). Must be a Texas resident to buy a gun, someone not prohibited from owning a gun, 18 for long gun and handgun as long as a private party sale, must not be intoxicated, and must not intend to commit a crime with the weapon. Federal law is different but you are talking private sale.
Bill of Sale is up to you. Texasguntraders.com has a good one to download if you want one. If you require a LTC than you are limiting sale to 21 and older but you increase the safety margin of the sale..
I personally won't buy from someone without a Bill of Sale but that's my choice and please don't bother to argue with me about it. To me if the seller is not willing to provide a "chain of command" paperwork for the firearm I don't want to bother meeting with him. I don't sell guns so I have never had to deal with that option but it is basically the same. I personally don't trust a seller that won't Bill of Sale and when I do purchase a gun from someone that I have never met before I go to a public place and my wife is present in the car and is armed. Perhaps even a police station is a good idea. There are a lot of dishonest people out there so be careful. Almost all of my private purchases have been through texasguntraders.com. You can see how long they have been members (the longer the better) and you can map where they really are. Some people say Dallas and they are really in Florida trying a scam. I personally have had nothing but good experiences with my purchases from private individuals but there are always horror stories just like Craigslist.
IANL but I believe what I have said is legally correct.

Just curious, would you be OK with a bill of sale that did not include home addresses assuming that it had both names and you could check the name against their DL? The primary objection I see for a BOS is the exchange of too much personal info.

[rotor]

This has been debated many times on this forum. The advantage of selling to a LTC holder is that they have had a background check (but must be 21). Must be a Texas resident to buy a gun, someone not prohibited from owning a gun, 18 for long gun and handgun as long as a private party sale, must not be intoxicated, and must not intend to commit a crime with the weapon. Federal law is different but you are talking private sale.
Bill of Sale is up to you. Texasguntraders.com has a good one to download if you want one. If you require a LTC than you are limiting sale to 21 and older but you increase the safety margin of the sale..
I personally won't buy from someone without a Bill of Sale but that's my choice and please don't bother to argue with me about it. To me if the seller is not willing to provide a "chain of command" paperwork for the firearm I don't want to bother meeting with him. I don't sell guns so I have never had to deal with that option but it is basically the same. I personally don't trust a seller that won't Bill of Sale and when I do purchase a gun from someone that I have never met before I go to a public place and my wife is present in the car and is armed. Perhaps even a police station is a good idea. There are a lot of dishonest people out there so be careful. Almost all of my private purchases have been through texasguntraders.com. You can see how long they have been members (the longer the better) and you can map where they really are. Some people say Dallas and they are really in Florida trying a scam. I personally have had nothing but good experiences with my purchases from private individuals but there are always horror stories just like Craigslist.
IANL but I believe what I have said is legally correct.

Just curious, would you be OK with a bill of sale that did not include home addresses assuming that it had both names and you could check the name against their DL? The primary objection I see for a BOS is the exchange of too much personal info.

Let's say the gun you sell is somehow linked to a crime in the future. BOS says I no longer owned the gun at that time because I sold it to "fill in the name and address" on this date. If someone is honest enough that you are willing to sell him your "weapon of war" (sarcasm) I don't see any problem with getting his name and address and if he wants my info he can have it. Selling a gun is not like selling a lawn mower. You can be prosecuted for violation of state and federal laws. I like to CMA when doing these transactions. This has to be a consensual issue between the buyer (me) and seller otherwise we don't even meet to discuss the sale. I have never had a seller that didn't agree. If one did I wouldn't be pursuing the purchase. Again, this is how I do business but it is not a legal requirement. Most people on this site from what I can gather don't do the BOS. I do. Perhaps someone that cares will do a survey question and see what the majority do.

[The Wall]

Minimum would be Texas drivers license and bill of sale with DL number and address on it. Good to make sure individual is 21 unless it's obvious he or she is.

[C-dub]

It probably wouldn't work for me since my name isn't Clinton, but I think it is still in place for transactions like this that one cannot KNOWINGLY sell a firearm to someone that is prohibited from possessing one. I have sold only two firearms in my life and both of them were to gentlemen on this forum. That doesn't guarantee that they weren't prohibited from possessing a firearm, but I had no reason to believe that they were either. One claimed to have a CHL and the other claimed to have his one the way.

We exchanged no information and I'm not even sure I remember their screen names here. I'm not worried about this at all.

[rotor]

Minimum would be Texas drivers license and bill of sale with DL number and address on it. Good to make sure individual is 21 unless it's obvious he or she is.

Can legally be 18 under Texas law.

[goose]

Let's say the gun you sell is somehow linked to a crime in the future. BOS says I no longer owned the gun at that time because I sold it to "fill in the name and address" on this date.

Are there many cases of LTC caliber folks, with assumed alibis, no ties to criminal activity, and especially with zero ties to the victim(s) often charged with crimes from guns they've sold? Barring some John Grisham / Tom Clancy story line where a rogue NSA agent sets me up, I can't imagine a prosecuting attorney bringing me up for murder charges when I have been stuck in suburbia all of my life. It is a big country so I assume maybe charges have in fact been filed? Of those very very few that were charged, how many went to trial? Has anyone ever been convicted?

Statistically speaking I am confident that it is orders of magnitude higher probability that a house is broken into with a notebook containing firearms purchasers'/sellers' info than there is of me being charged with a crime after a sale.

Sale of a firearm -> probability that you sold to a criminal -> probability that the criminal uses it in a crime -> probability that they used it in a crime and left it behind -> probability that the criminal is never identified -> probability that you are identified -> probability that the prosecuting attorney thinks that you're the perp -> probability that the PA thinks they can convince a jury that you really were the perp.
All of these things have to add up to criminal charges filed against you.

Sale of a firearm to good guy -> House of good guy buyer broken into -> firearms sales information found in home.
OR
Sale of a firearm to bad guy -> bad guy has your address and knows that you have guns -> people come visit, hopefully while you are out to dinner.
I'll even grant that the average home burglary doesn't involve criminals looking at paperwork. BUT, IMO, either of these last options are still a vastly more likely outcome than a firearm ending up in criminal hands, used in a crime where the real criminal isn't identified and then the PA thinking that you're the guy.

[mrvmax]

Let's say the gun you sell is somehow linked to a crime in the future. BOS says I no longer owned the gun at that time because I sold it to "fill in the name and address" on this date.

Are there many cases of LTC caliber folks, with assumed alibis, no ties to criminal activity, and especially with zero ties to the victim(s) often charged with crimes from guns they've sold? Barring some John Grisham / Tom Clancy story line where a rogue NSA agent sets me up, I can't imagine a prosecuting attorney bringing me up for murder charges when I have been stuck in suburbia all of my life. It is a big country so I assume maybe charges have in fact been filed? Of those very very few that were charged, how many went to trial? Has anyone ever been convicted?

My point exactly, I think people watch too many movies and confuse that with reality. I have asked here before of some incidents in Texas where someone sold a gun and then were convicted of a crime due to it being used by someone else. So far nobody has come up with any so I don't see a need to be paranoid.

[rotor]

goose and mrvax
No argument from me. I said that is just how I do things and I am not interested in arguing or debating the issue. You have the option of doing or not doing a BOS. Obviously I will not be buying a gun from either of you.
I don't know why this issue always brings up so much argument. I drive a Ford truck, you drive a Chevy. All is still good.