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Larry82052 wrote:I plan on carring a American Derringer 410 for backup along with the Sig P~245) for the simple reason its deadly at 15 ft if needed and more so at closer ranges.I have shot one and I was impressed that the recoil wasnt that much due to the fact that most the powder is burnt outside the barrel,but the pattern is awesome.Give me your thoughts.

So your only plan is to kill?

To answer your question, for me, I don't think I like the idea of my backup having only one shot.

But I was just making the statement that its a great side arm for backup just in case it comes down to it,Naw I had rather see no incident of ever having even to have to draw a weapon,because then it could be bad for both theBG andf me.I had rather just be safe than sorry.

Larry82052 wrote:I plan on carring a American Derringer 410 for backup along with the Sig P~245) for the simple reason its deadly at 15 ft if needed and more so at closer ranges.I have shot one and I was impressed that the recoil wasnt that much due to the fact that most the powder is burnt outside the barrel,but the pattern is awesome.Give me your thoughts.

Newton's Third Law applies: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

As applied to guns: muzzle energy and recoil are exactly equal. If the recoil "wasn't that much" in such a small and light handgun, then neither was the impact on the target. All that powder burning outside the barrel isn't doing one thing to propel the shot downrange.

Kevin

Larry:

I think what KB was basically saying is if the recoil was light out of a relatively light weapon, with no buffering, then the muzzle energy was reduced compared to medium or heavy recoil or a system with a buffer group (such as in most autos). That Newton was one smart cookie to come up with those laws!

The other point to remember is muzzle energy is not the same as the energy available at the target. At the muzzle it’s primarily made up of two components, one the mass of the bullet times it’s velocity, and two the mass of the gas/powder times its velocity. Except at very close range, we’re talking almost contact range, the gas/powder contribution does not make it to the target. Also, the friction of traveling through the air robs the projectile of energy. So the one thing we can say with authority is the energy available to expend in the target is less then what was available at the muzzle, and continues to fall with distance.

Now perceived recoil is a very subjective quantity. One person firing a weapon will report moderate/acceptable recoil and another will report high/unacceptable recoil with the same weapon/load combination…it’s the perception part that gets to be nebulous. The only generally accepted way to quantify the available energy of a given weapons system is to measure the velocity of the projectile. See if you can get actual measured velocities from someone, or possibly off the web…the truth is in the numbers.

Of course the energy in the bullet that is measured (energy x mass) is only useful if all of it is expended in the target, hence the discussion of over-penetration, but with the shotshell load, that’s probably not a worry.

I think the point TXI was making was the limited amount of rounds available. You’re correct, it has two shots which is better then one, but you are limited to two…Maybe a revolver would be an option (J-frames come to mind), and there are some rather small autos that would have higher capacity. One additional advantage to the small auto is the speed/ease of reloading…drop the mag and insert new one and you’re all set to go!

For me personally, I wouldn’t put too much faith in a weapons system based on what it did to a board. True, the effect can look impressive, but real life stopping power could be less then you were anticipating. Ballistic gelatin would be a lot more convincing, but even it can be misleading…

But if you decide to go with the American derringer, I would be very interested in some posted range results, perceptions on defensive qualities, and some velocity measurements. Having never shot one, I’m curious.

Good luck in your search and let us know what you decide

Quote: "Maybe a revolver would be an option (J-frames come to mind)"

Similar to what I was thinking when a guy showed up at range last week to test fire his new .410/.45 Colt Derringer. "I've got 5-shot j-frames that are not bigger than that thing!"

We normally don't allow "shotguns" at our range, but he had some 2 1/2" buckshot loads that I let him pattern on a B-27 target. He got "groups" with the 3 pellets averaging about 10" at 7 yards. Recoil did not appear to be too viscious with the 2 1/2" .410s, but I still did not ask to shoot it.

I've found that the muzzle blast from some hand cannons can cause chronograph to show "error" every time if the unit is not set up at least 12' to 15' away. And with the spread I saw on that guy's buckshot, I think the velocity check on such needs to be done with someone else's unit.

Semantics aside, I'm not sure this is a really bad idea, just one I probably wouldn't implement without a lot of study...

I've noticed these .410 "revolvers" at the gunshows of late...Look like 5 shot models...3-4" barrels, pretty solid manufacturing from what I can tell...Don't recall any particular maker, just because these things have only caught my eye in passing...

Next time I roll through one, I may take a closer look...

My philosophy behind a lot of my self-defense methods is basically if you can't get it done with the load-out you have on hand, best to be on your way out and away from the threat...This one facet based upon the idea that I have not had much use for a BUG of any type...

Thats not to say I haven't thought about it after hanging around some of you guys and gals over the last 15-20 years...

My normal load out is that G23 (13+1) and one spare (13)...Thats it...

If I had to conceal another pistol like this...Thats just one more thing I have to think about keeping concealed, secure, and safe from accidentally shooting myself everytime I have it on me...

But this is just my opinion...

I have a Bond Arms Derringer in .45 Colt/.410.
I have put about 100 rounds of 45 Colt through it. The kick is not that bad, for me, but others have said that it is bad.
I have put less then 10 rounds of #4 shot of .410. They did kick more then the 45 colt, to me.
I have some 000 buckshot in it at the house right now. I have not fired it will the 000 yet.
To me the gun is not a good choice for other than contact distance. If the BG was over about 5 feet from me, then I could not want to use this gun.
I think that it makes a better snake gun then one that I would want to use to defend my life with. That being said, it could be carried as a 2nd or 3rd BUG.
I do not have any numbers for it, since I do not have a chronograph.

Quote: "I have put about 100 rounds of 45 Colt through it. The kick is not that bad, for me, but others have said that it is bad."

There's a very broad spread of ammo out there in 45 Colt. The guy I mentioned at range the other day had a box of (typically tame) "cowboy" loads. On the other extreme are loads like
Double Tap .45 Colt +P 255g LSW- Keith (Avg. 1,392 fps from 7.5" .454 SRH) - which can turn some guns into grenades. Or even if not, may rearrange the shooter's physical features. I'd be real careful about what I fed 'em. I know not the details, but did an NRA trade show exhibit in 1996 next to a Waco lady whose son had been killed factory testing what I think was a derringer-on-steroids ...

stevie_d_64 wrote:I've noticed these .410 "revolvers" at the gunshows of late...Look like 5 shot models...3-4" barrels, pretty solid manufacturing from what I can tell...Don't recall any particular maker, just because these things have only caught my eye in passing...

Prob'ly the Taurus "The Judge" pistol. I don't know the model number.

Take a look at the Taurus site: http://www.taurususa.com/whatsnew/revolvers.cfm

I personally favor an S&W 642, Kahr PM9, or fullsize gun as a backup to my regular handgun.

If I was expecting trouble I'd have a long gun with my fullsize .45 as backup.

I'm not too familiar with the American Derringer, but I hear that derringers don't have all the safety devices of a modern handgun. For me that's a big concern that would need to be addressed before I carried one.

Paladin wrote:I'm not too familiar with the American Derringer, but I hear that derringers don't have all the safety devices of a modern handgun. For me that's a big concern that would need to be addressed before I carried one.

On the Bond Arms there is a cross bolt type safety. It works vvery well too. First time that I took it to the range, i forgot to take the safety off. I cocked it and pulled the trigger. The hammer fell but no bang. I did it again, and again the same thing, no bang. I then looked at the gun and saw what had happened. I then took the safety off and it went bang everytime after that.
I dont think that the safety could come off with out you wanting it too.

Yeah, I hate it too, when I pull the trigger and there is no bang...

Just a click...

Came back from the range one time with my forehead all red... forgot the safety!!!

Just basically a whole flood of emotions...

Glad no one else saw the spectacle...