There are many myths floating around out there in the world of armed self-defense. Some are wishful thinking—the sound of whistling past the graveyard. Some are sincere beliefs that merely lack a foundation of truth. And some are generalities that may not apply in specific situations. Let’s look at just a few of those -
“IF YOU CAN’T DO IT WITH SIX, YOU CAN’T DO IT AT ALL!”
A municipal police sergeant in northern Illinois, Tim Gramins, comes to mind. He pulled over a heav-ily armed suspect who came out shooting, and the fight was on. In just under a minute, the perpetrator was finally down and dead. During that time, Gramins had fired 33 rounds from his Glock 21 pistol, reloaded as necessary and hit his opponent 14 times with 230-grain Gold Dot .45 bullets. Six of those hits were in what most of us would call “vital zones,” but he fight wasn’t over until Gramin finally had the opportunity for brain shots.During that fight the suspect had gone through two semi-automatic pistols himself and had fired 21 shots.
“MY CAR IS NEVER FAR AWAY, SO I’LL JUST KEEP MY HANDGUN/LONG GUN/SPARE AMMO THERE"
“YOU MUST PRACTICE ONLY POINT SHOOTING, BECAUSE YOU’LL NEVER BE ABLE TO SEE YOUR SIGHTS IN A GUNFIGHT!”
“YOU MUST PRACTICE ONLY AIMED FIRE, BECAUSE YOU’LL NEVER BE ABLE TO HIT ANYTHING POINTING!”
“YOU CAN NEVER JUSTIFY SHOOTING A MAN MORE THAN 7/15/25 YARDS AWAY!”
His real life examples at the link. I included part of one incident because it is an example of a sort of double myth.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:57 pm
by Smokey
. Vic Stacy shot the gunman from some 65 yards away with a Colt Python .357 Magnum revolver...
Nice shot!
And I'm hoping I can do it with sixteen :)
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:43 am
by VMI77
Smokey wrote:
. Vic Stacy shot the gunman from some 65 yards away with a Colt Python .357 Magnum revolver...
Nice shot!
And I'm hoping I can do it with sixteen :)
I think he was braced on a tree and in SA mode, but even without being braced 65 yards is not that hard with a little practice. A few years ago I had trouble hitting at 50 yards but after some practice I can frequently hit a 10" steel gong at 65 yards (that's about as far back as I usually go with handgun practice) and hit consistently at 50, even with a short sight radius gun like the P938. What surprises me is how much difference that last 15 yards makes. I find 50 yards much easier than 65 yards. Part of it is that I just can't see the target that well at the longer distances.
That's with open sights. The CT laser greatly improves my accuracy at the longer distances. The laser eliminates the sight alignment factor and it becomes mostly a matter of how steady I can hold the gun. Of course, in bright daylight you can't see the laser...but when you can.....
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:42 pm
by Abraham
“IF YOU CAN’T DO IT WITH SIX, YOU CAN’T DO IT AT ALL!”
Well, I believe carrying a G19 with a fully loaded spare may not be enough, but 6, puh-leeze...(or 7/8 aint enough either)
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:01 pm
by myntalfloss
Let's not forget Austin Police Sgt. Adam Johnson who shot an active shooter who was shooting up downtown Austin with an AK. He shot him through the heart with a one-handed shot from his S&W .40 from 104 yards away while holding the reins of two horses in the other hand.
This was mentioned on several late night talk shows and I remember one where the host compared his shot to one where 8 or 9 NYC cops fired over a hundred rounds at a suspect on the street less than 10 yards away, hitting him once.
He's my hero.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:12 pm
by Pawpaw
VMI77 wrote:
Smokey wrote:
. Vic Stacy shot the gunman from some 65 yards away with a Colt Python .357 Magnum revolver...
Nice shot!
And I'm hoping I can do it with sixteen :)
I think he was braced on a tree and in SA mode, but even without being braced 65 yards is not that hard with a little practice. A few years ago I had trouble hitting at 50 yards but after some practice I can frequently hit a 10" steel gong at 65 yards (that's about as far back as I usually go with handgun practice) and hit consistently at 50, even with a short sight radius gun like the P938. What surprises me is how much difference that last 15 yards makes. I find 50 yards much easier than 65 yards. Part of it is that I just can't see the target that well at the longer distances.
That's with open sights. The CT laser greatly improves my accuracy at the longer distances. The laser eliminates the sight alignment factor and it becomes mostly a matter of how steady I can hold the gun. Of course, in bright daylight you can't see the laser...but when you can.....
Actually, he was braced on the hood of a van. Still a great shot.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:35 pm
by baldeagle
Out of curiosity I recently looked up the drop off of a pistol round at 50 and 100 yards. I was surprised to find that the bullet actually rises over those distances. So a shot from that range is possible. The issue is aiming.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:12 pm
by blackdog8200
Abraham wrote:“IF YOU CAN’T DO IT WITH SIX, YOU CAN’T DO IT AT ALL!”
Well, I believe carrying a G19 with a fully loaded spare may not be enough, but 6, puh-leeze...(or 7/8 aint enough either)
Agreed
One of the rules for gun-fighting is the faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.....
Another is anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice.....
That said, a typical home invasion involves four actors on average. Assuming two rounds per actor for a "stop".... And a 100% hit rate we are reloading the average revolver..... Before we have engaged all the actors. Makes those big double stack mags very desirable.
Trained police officers average 10% combat hit rates, thugs actually do better at 70%
" only hits count, you can't miss fast enough to win "
So allowing extra rounds for stress when practical is great.
But never forget the first rule..... Have a gun
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:16 am
by Smokey
Some of those thugs may bug out once you start shooting, but yes, having some firepower is comforting.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:53 am
by VMI77
blackdog8200 wrote:
Abraham wrote:“IF YOU CAN’T DO IT WITH SIX, YOU CAN’T DO IT AT ALL!”
Well, I believe carrying a G19 with a fully loaded spare may not be enough, but 6, puh-leeze...(or 7/8 aint enough either)
Agreed
One of the rules for gun-fighting is the faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.....
Another is anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice.....
That said, a typical home invasion involves four actors on average. Assuming two rounds per actor for a "stop".... And a 100% hit rate we are reloading the average revolver..... Before we have engaged all the actors. Makes those big double stack mags very desirable.
Trained police officers average 10% combat hit rates, thugs actually do better at 70%
" only hits count, you can't miss fast enough to win "
So allowing extra rounds for stress when practical is great.
But never forget the first rule..... Have a gun
My handy home handgun is a CZ with an 18 round mag.
I don't know if those hit rates are right....when my son went to the police academy they said the police hit rate was about 20%. Never heard a thug hit rate before but I highly doubt it's 70%. There may be some subset of thug shootings that have a higher hit rate because they usually have the element of surprise...but clearly, gang bangers and others aren't hitting 70% of the time.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:43 pm
by rockinar
Abraham wrote:“IF YOU CAN’T DO IT WITH SIX, YOU CAN’T DO IT AT ALL!”
Well, I believe carrying a G19 with a fully loaded spare may not be enough, but 6, puh-leeze...(or 7/8 aint enough either)
Overkill. You are not the police. And the reason for the pistol is personal DEFENSE. You sound like you are on offense. 6 is fine.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:20 pm
by Jago668
rockinar wrote:
Abraham wrote:“IF YOU CAN’T DO IT WITH SIX, YOU CAN’T DO IT AT ALL!”
Well, I believe carrying a G19 with a fully loaded spare may not be enough, but 6, puh-leeze...(or 7/8 aint enough either)
Overkill. You are not the police. And the reason for the pistol is personal DEFENSE. You sound like you are on offense. 6 is fine.
Most of the time, 6 is enough. Still there are those of us that like to carry a few more just in case.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:51 am
by VMI77
rockinar wrote:
Abraham wrote:“IF YOU CAN’T DO IT WITH SIX, YOU CAN’T DO IT AT ALL!”
Well, I believe carrying a G19 with a fully loaded spare may not be enough, but 6, puh-leeze...(or 7/8 aint enough either)
Overkill. You are not the police. And the reason for the pistol is personal DEFENSE. You sound like you are on offense. 6 is fine.
Please tell me that isn't a serious reply and that you're being sarcastic? If not sarcasm, that "on the offense" claim is downright Bloombergian.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:03 am
by VMI77
baldeagle wrote:Out of curiosity I recently looked up the drop off of a pistol round at 50 and 100 years. I was surprised to find that the bullet actually rises over those distances. So a shot from that range is possible. The issue is aiming.
Yes, the bullet drop really isn't the issue. The other day I was aiming at a target from 100 yards with a CT laser on a G17. The laser gave me a painful demonstration of just how much wobble around the target I had at that distance. I need a steadier hand or a solid brace to keep on target at that range.
Re: 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:11 am
by Abraham
Given multiple criminals attacking, often times 6 rounds isn't enough.
That's why I carry a Glock 19 with a fully loaded spare magazine.