D.I. versus Piston AR

[Abraham]

From all I've researched both AR systems are reliable, but D.I.'s are generally, if not always less pricey.

Piston systems are easier to clean after firing, but is that the only plus?

Plus, on a t.v. Guns and Ammo episode, I saw something either called a bore protector or a chamber protector used to guide the cleaning rod so as not to damage anything on it's in and out.

Anyone here use one or is it overkill? From the looks of the one I saw it looked bulky and perhaps pricey...and something I was unaware even existed.

Thanks!

[JeepGuy79]

IMHO the AR/m16 design is not meant to have a piston and it causes more issues than it solves. I had a barret rec7 in 6.8 that couldn't shoot 4 rounds in a row without problems after me and barret both working on it for months. Then again I could care less about a gun that wasn't designed by hk or Kalashnikov :) (minus a hk416/417 bleh)

[Wes]

I have two DIs and just recently built a piston out of a compete Adams arms upper. After just a hundred rounds, you could barely tell the piston was used vs the DI with the same that was clearly dirty already. They both shot the same, and I couldn't really tell any difference in the feel or operation of either. I used two different types of bulk ammo, no trouble at all in it. The piston I bought to shoot suppressed and when building it actual cost the same as my fully assembled smith DI.

[Excaliber]

From all I've researched both AR systems are reliable, but D.I.'s are generally, if not always less pricey.

Piston systems are easier to clean after firing, but is that the only plus?

Plus, on a t.v. Guns and Ammo episode, I saw something either called a bore protector or a chamber protector used to guide the cleaning rod so as not to damage anything on it's in and out.

Anyone here use one or is it overkill? From the looks of the one I saw it looked bulky and perhaps pricey...and something I was unaware even existed.

Thanks!

The piston system keeps the hot gases out of the bolt group, which keeps that part of the gun a lot cooler. Lubricant seems to last longer with the piston system, and you don't have to worry about a kinked or obstructed gas tube, remembering to put a drop of oil in the gas key, or scraping hard carbon out of the inside of the bolt. Cleaning is a breeze.

If I were blindfolded I don't think I could subjectively feel the difference in shooting the two systems, although some claim that the piston guns have a slightly stiffer recoil.

I do use a cleaning rod guide in my rifles when I clean them in the shop to avoid putting unnecessary wear on the rifling, particularly just ahead of the chamber in those that can be cleaned from the breech end. I don't consider it critical, but it falls into the category of "Why not be careful when you can?" In the field I don't worry about it.

[gigag04]

Pistons are great. The LMT, LWRC, and HK are all gtg.

They provide a high level of utility to folks shooting lots of full auto, or suppressed rounds, or operating in less than ideal conditions. I had one because I thought the technology was neat. That said it was heavy, and though it was used for work, the cost-benefit wasn't there for me.

They do run very clean and stay cool much better than their DI counterparts. You would have to decide if the extra coin and ounces are worth it.

[Wes]

Ah, the extra weight. I did forget about that. It actually surprised me in the difference. I wasn't crazy about it at first but I got used to it. Of course you can swap out the rail to help if its too much.

[Abraham]

Very informative everyone, thanks.

Up to now I was looking at buying a Colt LE6920, but now I'm reconsidering.

If, a Piston AR is significantly easier to clean in comparison to a DI system (I don't mind the fact it's a heavier rifle) that may well be what I end up getting as I tend to be OCD-ish when it comes to cleaning weapons. By that I mean, I take way more time to clean than is really necessary, thus a piston system might keep from spending to darn much time in unnecessary cleaning. At least, that's my guess...if it doesn't look terribly dirty, I won't be trying to clean it down to the microscopic level.

That said, can anyone highly recommend a piston brand/model AR?

I'm sure there are lesser piston models and superior piston models.

Thanks!

[JeepGuy79]

a 6920 is GTG. what you want it for? You have any AR type guns yet?

[Abraham]

Yes, the Colt LE6920 was recommended and that's very well what I may (someday) buy, but I'm now also interested in a piston system instead. Problem is, I don't know one from another.

And no, I don't own a single AR, yet...

[The Annoyed Man]

Very informative everyone, thanks.

Up to now I was looking at buying a Colt LE6920, but now I'm reconsidering.

If, a Piston AR is significantly easier to clean in comparison to a DI system (I don't mind the fact it's a heavier rifle) that may well be what I end up getting as I tend to be OCD-ish when it comes to cleaning weapons. By that I mean, I take way more time to clean than is really necessary, thus a piston system might keep from spending to darn much time in unnecessary cleaning. At least, that's my guess...if it doesn't look terribly dirty, I won't be trying to clean it down to the microscopic level.

That said, can anyone highly recommend a piston brand/model AR?

I'm sure there are lesser piston models and superior piston models.

Thanks!

One thing that doesn't get mentioned too often about gas piston ARs is that they still vent combustion gases, they just don't vent them into the BCG/Receiver. Instead, they vent the gases forward, and some of them will dirty up the exterior of the rifle at the location of the vent....like on the handguard or around the front sight, etc. It may aid the function of the rifle, and it may be easier to clean up too, but it still needs to be cleaned.

I haven't ever shot a gas-piston AR to compare to my own DI carbine, so I can't speak to the weight issue, although it makes sense. I'm actually a little surprised that it makes as much of a difference as people are saying, but I'm not qualified to comment.

One alternative you might consider is buying separately a quality lower (assembled or not, your choice) and then buying a separate gas-piston assembled upper from someone like Adam Arms. Their uppers have the M4 feed ramps, come with a 1:7 barrel and are available in several lengths. Their GP system is tunable in the field by means of rotating a knob; and the kit also includes the replacement Bolt Carrier you'll need because a standard DI BC won't work with a GP system. I'm sure that the Adams Arms systems are available elsewhere too, but I found them on Brownells.com for $630 (member price) for one with a 16" barrel.

[Beiruty]

Get a SIG556 and you got a gtg piston AR, or wait for the new ARX100.
I got a standard SIG M400 and I did not shoot it yet.

[Abraham]

Thanks for the info TAM and Beiruty.

A neighbor of mine did the mix and match Adams Arms piston upper with the quality lower. I think, not certain at this point, he paid in the neighborhood of $1500.00 for the complete package. He's very happy with it and was the first one to advise me of the easier cleaning aspect of a piston type AR.

On a side note: I just came back from Wally World and the guy manning the sporting goods counter tells me when they have them, they sell the Colt 6920 for $1100.00. I've no clue if this is reasonable or a price still outlandishly high because that's what the current market will bear...and given time the cost will come down considerably...?

If we're looking at say roughly $400/500 higher cost for a Piston AR vs DI, I kinda cringe. Is such a cost difference worth it? Maybe, I don't know...

I quit black powder shooting years ago because of the incredibly lengthy time it took to clean my old brass frame revolver became just too much...I'd hate to have the same happen with my (some day soon I hope) AR.

[The Annoyed Man]

Thanks for the info TAM and Beiruty.

A neighbor of mine did the mix and match Adams Arms piston upper with the quality lower. I think, not certain at this point, he paid in the neighborhood of $1500.00 for the complete package. He's very happy with it and was the first one to advise me of the easier cleaning aspect of a piston type AR.

On a side note: I just came back from Wally World and the guy manning the sporting goods counter tells me when they have them, they sell the Colt 6920 for $1100.00. I've no clue if this is reasonable or a price still outlandishly high because that's what the current market will bear...and given time the cost will come down considerably...?

If we're looking at say roughly $400/500 higher cost for a Piston AR vs DI, I kinda cringe. Is such a cost difference worth it? Maybe, I don't know...

I quit black powder shooting years ago because of the incredibly lengthy time it took to clean my old brass frame revolver became just too much...I'd hate to have the same happen with my (some day soon I hope) AR.

As I recall, BC (Before the Crunch) Colt 6920's were selling in the $900-$1,000 range, so $1,100 is a little high but it doesn't sound outlandish in light of what has happened to the rest of the market.

As far as the cleaning of a standard AR goes, it really isn't that big of a deal. You've got to remember that these rifles were designed to be maintained by soldiers in the field. If you're an operator in Afghannyland and firing 250 rounds every other day, then yes, your rifle's cleaning/maintenance cycle will become critical.....and time consuming. But in the civilian world, what's the most you'd shoot in a single day? Maybe 200 rounds? And how often would you shoot that many rounds at a sitting? Maybe once a month.....maybe three times a year? The job of keeping a civilian AR15 properly cleaned and maintained shouldn't be ignored, but neither is it as much work as if you were firing really high round counts in a war zone.

They field strip very easily. The receivers are opened clam-shell style by pushing out one pin, which can be accomplished with your thumb, or a pen, or a stick, or a bullet tip, or a punch, or whatever you have handy. Once the receiver is opened, the really dirty parts (primarily the BCG) pop right out, and they are cleaned very easily. The bolt separates from the carrier very easily, pretty much without tools, and doing so automatically removes the firing pin while you're at it. Once the bolt is removed from the carrier, it can be reduced to most of its component parts—if need be....usually it isn't necessary—quite easily.

Once you have the thing field stripped, cleaning it is really no harder than cleaning your pistol is. And just like with a pistol, if you neglect the cleaning long enough and you shoot enough rounds, eventually the thing will carbon up and it will get baked on, and then it has to be scraped/steel brushed off because solvent alone won't be enough.....just like with your pistol. And also just like with your pistol, it's not going to seize up your rifle if you don't clean it after every 100 rounds. You should clean it, but keeping it lubed is maybe/probably more important, and as long as you do clean it periodically, you'll be fine. And if you're using Froglube, you don't need to run out and buy other brands of lubricants. The kit has everything you need to keep your rifle up and running. DON'T gum up your trigger/hammer assemblies with oils and greases, but clean/lube everything else and you'll be fine. It really doesn't take that long to do AR15 maintenance.

You can prevent a certain amount of this stuff simply by using good products to lube and/or treat the metal surfaces. Froglube is a good product, easy to apply, and effective, and our own OldCannon is a distributor and will gladly sell you some. It's not even that expensive. DO follow the initial application directions as it will make a difference, but it doesn't require anything more complicated than the tools that come with the kit (a brush and a microfiber cloth), and a hair-drier to get the metal hot when you first apply the product. If you do it right, what will happen is that as the metal parts heat up under actual use, they will begin to "sweat" Froglube, and they will actually get slicker and run better, and carbon and other particulates will not stick to the metal and can literally be wiped right off with a rag.

[Wes]

Something else I considered before building mine out with the AA upper was getting the nickel boron bcg. It is very slick and a lot more resistance to hard fouling so cleaning is easier, or so it's advertised and claimed by others. I have held both and the NiB bolt feels oiled up even when dry, but I don't own one. Yet! I did however buy the NiB trigger kit and like it a lot better as it doesn't seem to lose the crispness even after I shot 600 rounds through it.

[gigag04]

Get a SIG556 and you got a gtg piston AR, or wait for the new ARX100.
I got a standard SIG M400 and I did not shoot it yet.

Do you know of any pros (MIL or Contractor, not LE) running the 556?

Just curious what you're basing the good to go recommendation you offer.