A word about small CC guns

[Ruark]

I have owned and carried all kinds of handguns, from big Ruger Blackhawks to 1911s to snubbie revolvers to my current baby, a SIG P238. I just wanted to make a quick comment, aimed mainly at those who are new to small guns. One thing to remember is that the barrels on these guns are SHORT: 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches. Without a good amount of practice, it can be very difficult to hit a vitals zone beyond 10-15 feet. With a barrel that short, a TINY fraction of an inch in movement - say moving it slightly when you pull the trigger - can move the impact point several inches or more. I still remember a friend of mine, a veteran IPSC shooter with a full house Wilson 1911, trying out a little 38sp snubbie with a 2" barrel. He sprayed shots over a 2 foot circle at 5 yards. We had a good laugh about it, but at the same time we acknowledged the potential seriousness of the matter.

What's also important is that this combines with another factor: the need for accuracy with these guns in a self-defense situation, because of their lower power compared with big calibers. Hitting 8 inches off with a .45 ACP against a charging assailant will still very likely get his attention. 8 inches off with a .380 would very likely just annoy him.

Now, I'm NOT decrying small guns, by any means! As I said, my daily carry is a .380, and I love that little gun. But just take this as a friendly heads-up that there are some unique factors to consider if you decide to carry one of these smaller weapons. I'm sure some will post up saying they can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards with their pocket guns, but that's totally different from the heart pounding, grab-point-fire shooting of a self defense situation.

[apostate]

I'm sure some will post up saying they can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards with their pocket guns, but that's totally different from the heart pounding, grab-point-fire shooting of a self defense situation.

The same holds true for a full size duty weapon. Look at statistics for police shootings.

[doc540]

Absolutely agree...practice, practice, and then practice some more.

I'll never forget an older gentlemen who would quietly set up his gear at a local outdoor range.

I think he was buying .38 Special from a place like Georgia Arms and their "Canned Heat".

From a large "bucket" he loaded, shot, reloaded, and shot over and over again sometimes strong hand, sometimes weak hand, but he could accurately shoot that .38 snub.

He practiced regularly and a lot.

I suggest no one rely on the faulty logic of "Well, at least I have a gun".

Any and all concealed carry guns should be shot and shot a lot.

[Ruark]

I remember the very first time I ever shot a "small" gun, a Charter Arms Undercover, a little .38 snubbie with a 2" (or maybe it was 1 3/4") barrel. At that time I had been doing a lot of Steel Challenge shooting with a 1911 with $2,500 worth of competition mods, and was pretty good at it. I shot over 500 rounds a week in practice. I went to an indoor range with my new snubbie, loaded it and blasted away at a human-shaped target at 12 - 15 yards. Most of them didn't even hit the paper. It was a real slap in the face, a very sobering experience.

[Purplehood]

Are you suggesting that we Aim?

[Ruark]

Are you suggesting that we Aim?

Sir, I'm not suggesting anything, sir. I'm telling you that even if you DO "aim," you still may not be able to hit the side of a barn with one of these pocket guns, especially in a defense situation, sir.

The purpose of the OP is not to reiterate the need for practice, which has already been hammered home quite well. It's to point out that a person who isn't experienced with a pocket gun might be very surprised at how difficult it is to hit anything with it. Try putting up a standard paper plate at 25 feet. Pull out your snubbie or pocket pistol, hold it up at shoulder level, below your line of sight, and empty it at the plate, say two shots per second. This roughly duplicates how you'd fire in a defense situation. Unless you've been doing some serious practicing, chances are most or all of your shots will miss the plate completely.

Like I said, I love my P238 .380, but beginners need to realize that using a small pistol for CC creates a whole new set of issues. I never see this being discussed here; that's why I brought it up.

[Divided Attention]

This is exactly why when I was looking for side arms I found one I enjoyed shooting.... actually 3.... but I digress.

I try to regularly attend defensive pistol classes offered at a local range where I get to shoot while moving, from behind cover, and other IDPA style scenarios. I try to rotate which gun I take with me. While my 9mm is my fave, I have no problem putting 100 - 200 rounds through either my P238 or Colt snubby .38... The 38 has lovely rosewood grips, so it is a little harder on the hand, but still fun to shoot. I will never be a Julie Golub, but the IDPA type classes/matches give me the opportunity to better my skills with some adrenalin pumping. Not to mention they are fun! I encourage everyone to practice, practice, practice! Muscle memory is your friend in high stress situations. Remember you have 2 hands and may not always have the luxury of using both of them if your life depends on it... train that other one too.

[PBratton]

Now, not looking to start any nastiness here, but...

I'd have to say that regardless of the handgun, 90% of hitting the intended target is the shooter's responsibility.

At age 18, I came in second in my very first qualification by a tiny fraction of an inch. The firearm was a snubbie .357 loaner from a friend. I had never fired it until that day.

[wgoforth]

I have owned and carried all kinds of handguns, from big Ruger Blackhawks to 1911s to snubbie revolvers to my current baby, a SIG P238. I just wanted to make a quick comment, aimed mainly at those who are new to small guns. One thing to remember is that the barrels on these guns are SHORT: 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches. Without a good amount of practice, it can be very difficult to hit a vitals zone beyond 10-15 feet. With a barrel that short, a TINY fraction of an inch in movement - say moving it slightly when you pull the trigger - can move the impact point several inches or more. I still remember a friend of mine, a veteran IPSC shooter with a full house Wilson 1911, trying out a little 38sp snubbie with a 2" barrel. He sprayed shots over a 2 foot circle at 5 yards. We had a good laugh about it, but at the same time we acknowledged the potential seriousness of the matter.

What's also important is that this combines with another factor: the need for accuracy with these guns in a self-defense situation, because of their lower power compared with big calibers. Hitting 8 inches off with a .45 ACP against a charging assailant will still very likely get his attention. 8 inches off with a .380 would very likely just annoy him.

Now, I'm NOT decrying small guns, by any means! As I said, my daily carry is a .380, and I love that little gun. But just take this as a friendly heads-up that there are some unique factors to consider if you decide to carry one of these smaller weapons. I'm sure some will post up saying they can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards with their pocket guns, but that's totally different from the heart pounding, grab-point-fire shooting of a self defense situation.

Agree with importance of hitting vitals... however if your having probs hitting bullseyes with that P238, practice more or have it checked out. My wife and I both carry one and unlike the polymer pocket guns I have carried, these are as accurate for me at 21 yards as a full sized. It really surprised me first time out.

[Zylo_X]

... Like I said, I love my P238 .380, but beginners need to realize that using a small pistol for CC creates a whole new set of issues. I never see this being discussed here; that's why I brought it up.

Not to be 'preaching to the choir', but I take the OP's point, and add to it because it may help the less experienced make a better selection. Some might get caught in the rush to get a 'pocket pistol', before realizing it might not be the best fit for them. I 'came up' on original 1911's and Browning High Powers, along with an occasional large frame revolver. Joined the Army in 1983 and used both the .45 and 9mm with no problems. HOWEVER, when I was attached to an aviation unit, we were issued 38's and I almost couldn't qualify with it. Yes, practice, practice, and more practice is key, but I look for a comfortable and controllable grip first. As I consider purchasing a 380, I've rented several at the range, but found the size is too small for me. I'd rather hit 10 X's with my P22 then spray 380's around from the S&W Bodyguard. When I get to the larger sized 380's like a Beretta Cheetah, or Taurus 638, I find they are about the same size as my Ruger SR9C, so it doesn't make much sense to carry the same size pistol, but with a smaller caliber round. Just some points for consideration.

... I encourage everyone to practice, practice, practice! Muscle memory is your friend in high stress situations. Remember you have 2 hands and may not always have the luxury of using both of them if your life depends on it... train that other one too.

Thanks, another excellent point. I too practice with both hands, and have ambi safeties on all so I can not only fire, but also carry on either side.

[Ruark]

however if your having probs hitting bullseyes with that P238, practice more or have it checked out. My wife and I both carry one and unlike the polymer pocket guns I have carried, these are as accurate for me at 21 yards as a full sized. It really surprised me first time out.

I don't have a problem hitting a bullseye with it, IF I'm taking my time and aiming carefully and using the sights. What I'm talking about here is the person who's not accustomed to this kind of pistol, and just point-shooting at a fairly rapid rate, say a shot per second, at a target 20-25 feet off, which pretty fairly duplicates a lot of self defense situations. I'm not trying to start a debate - there's really no point to argue. I'm just giving beginners a heads up if they're planning to buy a pocket pistol or snubbie for CC.

[wgoforth]

however if your having probs hitting bullseyes with that P238, practice more or have it checked out. My wife and I both carry one and unlike the polymer pocket guns I have carried, these are as accurate for me at 21 yards as a full sized. It really surprised me first time out.

I don't have a problem hitting a bullseye with it, IF I'm taking my time and aiming carefully and using the sights. What I'm talking about here is the person who's not accustomed to this kind of pistol, and just point-shooting at a fairly rapid rate, say a shot per second, at a target 20-25 feet off, which pretty fairly duplicates a lot of self defense situations. I'm not trying to start a debate - there's really no point to argue. I'm just giving beginners a heads up if they're planning to buy a pocket pistol or snubbie for CC.

Wasn't trying to start adebate at all nor arguing! Just saying it can be done and with regularity if someone is willing to practice enough to get to that point. Small guns are often described as "expert guns" for that reason.

However... 20-25 is not common in self defense. The majority of self defense shootings occurs in under 10-15 feet, with the bulk of those under 9 ft. FWIW

[wgoforth]

It's to point out that a person who isn't experienced with a pocket gun might be very surprised at how difficult it is to hit anything with it. Try putting up a standard paper plate at 25 feet. Pull out your snubbie or pocket pistol, hold it up at shoulder level, below your line of sight, and empty it at the plate, say two shots per second. This roughly duplicates how you'd fire in a defense situation. Unless you've been doing some serious practicing, chances are most or all of your shots will miss the plate completely.

Most or all miss completely?? Now this does really surprise me.... I have had the Kel Tech P3AT, LCP, TCP, Body Guard and now the Sig. I may not have been able to hit the X, but ALWAYS able to get COM even with rapid fire. Operator issue.

[Skiprr]

With a barrel that short, a TINY fraction of an inch in movement - say moving it slightly when you pull the trigger - can move the impact point several inches or more.

I agree with almost everything Ruark (wouldn't have anything to do with Robert Ruark, would it?) said, but here's an item here that deserves comment.

A two-degree horizontal barrel shift is exactly the same degree of shift whether I'm shooting a .32 ACP Seecamp or a 6" 1911 longslide. The barrel is a straight tube. From the point of axis rotation, a two-degree shift is the same no matter the length of the barrel.

Put another way, if you were to take two guns in every way identical except that one had a 2"-barrel and another a 6"-barrel and were to position them in identical vises in exactly the same way, simultaneously rotating the vises to the same angle would result in exactly the same change in point-of-aim. The gun's inherent mechanical accuracy will affect point-of-impact, but the axis-rotation of the barrel will result in an identical point-of-aim.

What, in general, makes small guns more difficult to shoot well is the sight radius, mass, trigger, and grip/ergonomics.

Little tiny guns have little tiny grips and a short backstrap-to-trigger distance. That makes using them more difficult for anyone with medium-sized or larger hands. Even people with small hands can have difficulty with pistols that force the pinky-finger to grip air.

The small size of pocket guns necessitates that the number of moving parts be kept at a minimum. That means the only practical trigger is, generally speaking, a heavy, long-throw DAO. That's true with snubbies, and with most everything the size of a SIG 238 or smaller. Even the SIG has an 8-pound pull.

Many pocket guns weigh in at less than a pound. A Desert Eagle .50 AE weighs 4.4 pounds. Poor trigger control affects a 15-ounce gun proportionately more than a 4-pound gun. Thank you Isaac Newton for your Laws of Motion. But if you have excellent trigger control, you should be able to surprise-break the trigger the same no matter the gun in your hand.

Sight radius is what it is. My Seecamp .32 has no sights at all; it's designed for the purpose I use it: a 0-10ft BUG. Sights on a Kel-Tec P3AT have a miniscule sight radius. A government-size 1911 has a sight radius twice that of a P3AT. A rifle with iron sights might have two or three times again that 1911's sight radius. The longer the sight radius, theoretically the more accurate the firearm. Theoretically because, thank goodness, rather than trying to extend rifle lengths to umpteen feet for a humongous sight radius we were smart enough to invent sophisticated optics. The current record for a sniper shot is 2,657 yards (1.51 miles) by Robert Furlong using a .50 BMG McBros TAC 50. Optics are good.

Point is, shooting capability is directly transferable from a big gun, to a pocket gun, and back again.

If you have significant experience shooting, a pocket gun isn't hard to master. The basic skills--especially trigger control--are completely transferable. If you have little shooting experience, a pocket gun is going to be more difficult to learn to shoot well...primarily, IMHO, due to grip/ergonomics, trigger, mass, and sight radius.

[wgoforth]

With a barrel that short, a TINY fraction of an inch in movement - say moving it slightly when you pull the trigger - can move the impact point several inches or more.

I agree with almost everything Ruark (wouldn't have anything to do with Robert Ruark, would it?) said, but here's an item here that deserves comment.

A two-degree horizontal barrel shift is exactly the same degree of shift whether I'm shooting a .32 ACP Seecamp or a 6" 1911 longslide. The barrel is a straight tube. From the point of axis rotation, a two-degree shift is the same no matter the length of the barrel.

Put another way, if you were to take two guns in every way identical except that one had a 2"-barrel and another a 6"-barrel and were to position them in identical vises in exactly the same way, simultaneously rotating the vises to the same angle would result in exactly the same change in point-of-aim. The gun's inherent mechanical accuracy will affect point-of-impact, but the axis-rotation of the barrel will result in an identical point-of-aim.

What, in general, makes small guns more difficult to shoot well is the sight radius, mass, trigger, and grip/ergonomics.

Little tiny guns have little tiny grips and a short backstrap-to-trigger distance. That makes using them more difficult for anyone with medium-sized or larger hands. Even people with small hands can have difficulty with pistols that force the pinky-finger to grip air.

The small size of pocket guns necessitates that the number of moving parts be kept at a minimum. That means the only practical trigger is, generally speaking, a heavy, long-throw DAO. That's true with snubbies, and with most everything the size of a SIG 238 or smaller. Even the SIG has an 8-pound pull.

Many pocket guns weigh in at less than a pound. A Desert Eagle .50 AE weighs 4.4 pounds. Poor trigger control affects a 15-ounce gun proportionately more than a 4-pound gun. Thank you Isaac Newton for your Laws of Motion. But if you have excellent trigger control, you should be able to surprise-break the trigger the same no matter the gun in your hand.

Sight radius is what it is. My Seecamp .32 has no sights at all; it's designed for the purpose I use it: a 0-10ft BUG. Sights on a Kel-Tec P3AT have a miniscule sight radius. A government-size 1911 has a sight radius twice that of a P3AT. A rifle with iron sights might have two or three times again that 1911's sight radius. The longer the sight radius, theoretically the more accurate the firearm. Theoretically because, thank goodness, rather than trying to extend rifle lengths to umpteen feet for a humongous sight radius we were smart enough to invent sophisticated optics. The current record for a sniper shot is 2,657 yards (1.51 miles) by Robert Furlong using a .50 BMG McBros TAC 50. Optics are good.

Point is, shooting capability is directly transferable from a big gun, to a pocket gun, and back again.

If you have significant experience shooting, a pocket gun isn't hard to master. The basic skills--especially trigger control--are completely transferable. If you have little shooting experience, a pocket gun is going to be more difficult to learn to shoot well...primarily, IMHO, due to grip/ergonomics, trigger, mass, and sight radius.

Excellent observations, thank you for these! I know I sound like a salesman for the Sig, but it does differ in a couple of ways from the other listed "mouse guns" in several important ways, putting them virtually in a class by themelves. (1) 8lb trigger yes (but feels much lighter) but a short, crisp, SAO rather than the long, hard DAO of the others. (2) All metal frame, giving weight to help deal with muzzle flip/recoil allowing for faster follow-up. (3) The extended magazine allows for all of my fingers on the grip, rather than the pinky in the air. (4) Has excellent, useable, sights...tritium on most.