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After several years of reading about 30.05/30.06 postings and the like, I got to thinking about places with these and began to wonder if:

1. "Possibly" these places (malls, stores,etc) aren't anti-G-U-N or anti-C-H-L but possibly anti-L-A-W-S-U-I-T. The postings "could" be used by the businesses as a defense saying you were carrying against their will. With today's litigious society, even the BG can file a suit against the business and CHL holder if he gets shot while commiting a crime which is why "I" (meaning me personally) feel that the Texas should enact laws like other states that wouldn't allow civil suits against CHL holders by a BG shot in the commission of a crime (or their families). Innocent bystanders would still have all rights since you are responsible for your shots and they are definitely going to sue the business if they are shot inside their premises.

2. "Possibly" the businesses and most non-CHL holders feel (like the old saying) "If guns are outlawed, then only Outlaws will have guns". Non-CHL holder pack mentality tends to panic "if" a handgun is seen and they presume the carrier is a criminal. Granted, your gun is supposed to be "concealed", but occasionally (although unintentionally) one is seen. I think the Police (and possibly another CHL holder) that come upon a scene might think the same thing if they come up and you are standing there with a gun in your hand. Defensive training says you should try to gain cover and retreat away from the situation. However, if shots are fired and you are seen backing out of that business, things could go from bad to worse. Someone could think you were the BG in question and shoot you.

3. "Possibly" these business feel that by allowing people to carry on their premises, it would drive away alot of business. Alot of people are uncomfortable and some absolutely petrified when around guns. I really can't understand why but if you replace the word "guns" with the word "heights", then I can understand completely. I am deathly afraid of heights (or maybe it is just afraid of "falling" from great heights). Is this an irrational fear? Probably, and I have been told you can overcome these fears but at 50 years old, it hasn't happened yet.

I "believe" I can understand their reasoning (if indeed these are the reasons) although I don't agree with them. I think if I have gone through all of the process to be licensed to carry, then I should be able to (even in Government buildings etc). However, it is their property and they can make the rules just as I can make the rules about what takes place around my home. I also know that having a CHL doesn't mean you won't mess up just like being an LEO doesn't mean you won't commit a crime (No offense intended to our LE community Brothers and Sisters). That is why the DPS maintains a separate file on offenses commited by CHL holders.

The question I have though is (and it's probably more rhetorical rather than hypothetical), if I were in a business that had signage, whether proper 30.06 or not, and a BG was robbing the place, I pull my weapon to defend myself but allow him to go on with the crime (since the business, by it's signage, obviously doesn't want or desire my assistance), could I be charged with aiding and abeting a criminal in the commision of a crime? Morally I know what I would do and would just have to deal with the charges of unlawful carry in a business/BG stopped.

This is the question I ask (very calmly and politely) when I enter a business with anti CHL signage-"Why would you not want me in your business after I have gone through an FBI background check, taken a firearms course and qualified proficient with a handgun, continue to study and gain experience with a firearm and desire to protect me and those around me? Because I would almost guarantee you that the BG hasn't gone through all of this and your sign will not make any difference to him. Also, were a BG to come in here to commit a crime, wouldn't you rather that someone here be able to stop him from taking your property/life?"

Like everyone here, I look for 30.06's where ever I go but it would seem that in these Malls with the proper posting, they are almost leading the sheep to slaughter.

edit: this might be better moved to the General Texas CHL Discussion

rodnocker1 wrote:1. "Possibly" these places (malls, stores,etc) aren't anti-G-U-N or anti-C-H-L but possibly anti-L-A-W-S-U-I-T.

Yep. I keep pointing this out, and people are probably starting to roll their eyes. You can find lawyers who advise all businesses to prohibit weapons to avoid lawsuits.

I don't think it makes sense (1) because criminals by definition don't obey laws and rules; and (2) because people sue no matter what.

rodnocker1 wrote: if I were in a business that had signage, whether proper 30.06 or not, and a BG was robbing the place, I pull my weapon to defend myself but allow him to go on with the crime ..., could I be charged with aiding and abeting a criminal in the commision of a crime?

No. As a non-LEO citizen, you are not obligated to stop a crime.

Tactically, if I were in a situation where I was not a target of the robber, I think I would be digging a hole to China.

A guy I used to know stopped a robbery of a convenience store by hitting the robber over the head with a can of soup or something like that. He was a local hero for a while, but it seems like a very dicey thing to do to prevent the theft of $50 and a 12-pack.

- Jim

rodnocker1 wrote: 1. "Possibly" these places (malls, stores,etc) aren't anti-G-U-N or anti-C-H-L but possibly anti-L-A-W-S-U-I-T.

YES! As I posted in another thread about Grapevine Mills, this is the exact reason that they post only at some entrances and not others.

2. However, if shots are fired and you are seen backing out of that business, things could go from bad to worse. Someone could think you were the BG in question and shoot you.

This is why you were taught to never EVER fire at a person unless you saw, with your own eyes, the commission of the crime and they are still a grave threat. If you didn't, you could very well shoot the store owner who was shooting at the BG that just ran out a few seconds before.

3. "Possibly" these business feel that by allowing people to carry on their premises, it would drive away alot of business. Alot of people are uncomfortable and some absolutely petrified when around guns.

There is a slight flaw here. The general public doesn't know that carrying is legal if you have a CHL. By not posting, it doesn't even bring it to their attention. But, by posting a "NO GUNS" or 30.06 sign, it brings the idea to the forefront of their minds. This, I think, would only turn away business from folks like us, who follow the law.

The question I have though is (and it's probably more rhetorical rather than hypothetical), if I were in a business that had signage, whether proper 30.06 or not, and a BG was robbing the place, I pull my weapon to defend myself but allow him to go on with the crime (since the business, by it's signage, obviously doesn't want or desire my assistance), could I be charged with aiding and abetting a criminal in the commission of a crime?

No. But, you should never pull your gun unless it is time to use it. If you are seen holding a gun for whatever reason during the commission of a crime, a sheeple could assume you are with him and start screaming, "GUN!!! HE HAS A GUN TOO!!!" Now that would look bad.

Like everyone here, I look for 30.06's where ever I go but it would seem that in these Malls with the proper posting, they are almost leading the sheep to slaughter.

For the criminal, your exactly right.

I would try to intervene unless my children were present. I am a Soldier, and as such feel an innate obligation to help those who are unable/unwilling to help themselves.

If my children were present, my main concern would be their security and well-being. If that requires direct action on my part, so be it.

rodnocker1 wrote:The question I have though is (and it's probably more rhetorical rather than hypothetical), if I were in a business that had signage, whether proper 30.06 or not, and a BG was robbing the place, I pull my weapon to defend myself but allow him to go on with the crime (since the business, by it's signage, obviously doesn't want or desire my assistance), could I be charged with aiding and abeting a criminal in the commision of a crime? Morally I know what I would do and would just have to deal with the charges of unlawful carry in a business/BG stopped.

Since Texas CHL holders are law abiding citizens who do not break the law, I doubt that you would ever find a responsible CHL holder in an establishment that posted.

That's going a bit far, don't you think?
If I run across a place in FlowerMound, Texas, that posts, and I need something from there, and/or can't get it elsewhere....
I mean really?

are we all THAT paranoid that if god forbid we are disallowed to carry somewhere that we just assume that all hell is going to break loose?
guess I can no longer go to a club to see a band play, or buy some delicious Tacos, or go see the High School Football team.

now, I understand boycotting a place do to such restrictions, but to say, "you'd never see a self-respecting CHLer in thar" is just completely asinine.
economic sanctions work, yes, but don't lump me into your group. I'm not that hard core about it.

casselthief wrote:guess I can no longer go to... see the High School Football team.

Uh, yeah, thats right. You can't. They don't have to post to keep you out. I would highly recommend you not press this particular issue.

kauboy wrote:

casselthief wrote:guess I can no longer go to... see the High School Football team.

Uh, yeah, thats right. You can't. They don't have to post to keep you out. I would highly recommend you not press this particular issue.

too bad each of those I listed were places you can't carry. then maybe you'd have something behind your snide comment.
guess sarcasm is left unnoticed by the masses

but hey, since we're on the topic, how does ANYONE EVER go to ALL those places that don't let you carry?????
OH

MY

GAWD.

casselthief wrote:That's going a bit far, don't you think?

You can do what you want, its your call!

I don't break the law if I don't have to!

Tom

casselthief wrote:That's going a bit far, don't you think?
If I run across a place in FlowerMound, Texas, that posts, and I need something from there, and/or can't get it elsewhere....
I mean really?

are we all THAT paranoid that if god forbid we are disallowed to carry somewhere that we just assume that all hell is going to break loose?
guess I can no longer go to a club to see a band play, or buy some delicious Tacos, or go see the High School Football team.

now, I understand boycotting a place do to such restrictions, but to say, "you'd never see a self-respecting CHLer in thar" is just completely asinine.
economic sanctions work, yes, but don't lump me into your group. I'm not that hard core about it.

I think there is a point being missed here. I belive the post meant you would never find a CHL holder in one of these places while armed... I admit, I've been tempted to just run in for a minute, but I have yet to knowingly go into a posted place while armed.

Recently, a central Texas grand jury indicted a chl holder for carrying in a 51% type bar. Oddly, he was also an instructor of chl classes.
Allow me to restate the obvious: each of us--because of our licenses--has an obligation to obey the letter and spirit of the law and serve as good examples to our peers, especially the young ones.. Too, as a group we should strive to maintain the excellent statistics that chl folks have as far as our conduct. DPS keeps close and precise records on our group.

This was what I meant by "whether proper 30.06 or not". Improper would be signs that don't meet the regulation requirements. Proper would meet the requirements. The reason I put it like this is I was in Katy Mills Mall 2 weeks ago and usually go in and out of Bass Pro Shops and had never seen a 30.06 there. This time I went in a main entrance and happened to look over and saw their 30.06 so now I know they are posted.

We all talk about being "responsible" CHL holders and "the letter and spirit of the law" (spirit to me means "their intention"). It seems "TO ME" (that is I, Rodney, myself) that the intent of places that have "no guns" signage is that they don't want guns on their property, whether the signs meet the strict letter of the law or not. I have seen alot of posts where someone goes into a place like KMM and say they will just go in and out the non-posted exits (even after seeing the signs) so if they are discovered carrying there, they can say they didn't know. I don't know what the PC term for it is now but my Dad always called that "lying".

We, as CHL holders, are held to a higher standard than non-CHL holders and we seem to hold business that don't want guns on their property to the strictist of standards when it comes to 30.06 postings. If the sign doesn't meet the exact letter of the law, we use it as a means to circumvent their intent to disallow guns on their property.

I have no problem going in and out of BPS front entrance because they aren't posted and have said they aren't anti-CHL. I won't go into the Mall any longer though because now I do know their intent whether the door I go in is posted or not. It's like our Post Office here in Leona. It is a 12'X24" portable building on blocks that has front entrance, a 5'X12' "lobby" with mail boxes along one wall and a window. Would this be considered an actual "Post Office" compared to the huge brick buildings in most towns? Probably not. It wouldn't even meet the building codes in most places as a storage facility. But just because it doesn't meet "requirements" doesn't negate the fact that their "intent" was for this to be a Post Office and so I don't carry there.

I do believe in exercising our right to carry and defending ourselves and our families. With all of the Mall shootings that have been going on, a person would almost be insane not to be carrying. I would also rather be "Judged by 12 rather than be carried by 6" if it were a choice between the 2, although I would really rather not be judged at all.

casselthief wrote:

kauboy wrote:

casselthief wrote:guess I can no longer go to... see the High School Football team.

Uh, yeah, thats right. You can't. They don't have to post to keep you out. I would highly recommend you not press this particular issue.

too bad each of those I listed were places you can't carry. then maybe you'd have something behind your snide comment.

Excuse me? You posted:

casselthief wrote:guess I can no longer go to a club to see a band play, or buy some delicious Tacos, or go see the High School Football team.

1) go to a club to see a band: Yes you can unless they post or meet 51%
2) buy some delicious tacos: Yes you can unless they post or meet 51%
3) see the High School Football team: No you can't, EVER, per Texas law

Your three examples don't coalesce.

kauboy wrote:

casselthief wrote:

kauboy wrote:

casselthief wrote:guess I can no longer go to... see the High School Football team.

Uh, yeah, thats right. You can't. They don't have to post to keep you out. I would highly recommend you not press this particular issue.

too bad each of those I listed were places you can't carry. then maybe you'd have something behind your snide comment.

Excuse me? You posted:

casselthief wrote:guess I can no longer go to a club to see a band play, or buy some delicious Tacos, or go see the High School Football team.

1) go to a club to see a band: Yes you can unless they post or meet 51%
2) buy some delicious tacos: Yes you can unless they post or meet 51%
3) see the High School Football team: No you can't, EVER, per Texas law

Your three examples don't coalesce.

1) you see anywhere in Deep Ellum that isn't? you know of many clubs that AREN'T 51%
2) everyone on here has deplored the vile Taco Cabana, which is still, delicious
3) duh. that one was obvious.

1) Don't know Deep Ellum, but Billy Bobs is good, just don't go to the bar.
2) I have never liked the Taco Cabana near me, so I won't be going there anyways. Besides Rosa's Tortilla Factory has much better tacos and I carried there last week and will be going tomorrow for "Taco Tuesdays".
3) Duh