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Quality JHP will do just fine in almost the obstacle you mentioned. Where is the O Box link?

see here http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i could not see jhp vs car door. fmj vs car door is there.

The purpose of the Box O' Truth is to test the penetration of various rounds.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I mix and match jhp and fmj in the same mag

glock27 wrote:i was thinking about this but in a theoretical self defense situation hopefully it will not turn into a gun fight and you would not need to fire morethan a few rounds. but better safe than sorry i beleive.

reason im asking is that i beleive a high quality JHP "ranger T, gold saber... etc) would not penetrate obsticals but how well do they?

can a JHP go thru a car door? or would it open up and have no purpose on the bg once it went through? when in this case one could pop in your FMJ magazine and get the BG much easily on the other side. obviously assuming there is no one behind him if over penetraion occured. or maybe not even a car door but any kind of obstical that a BG could bunker behind will fmj benefit over jhp?


g27

I'm going to suggest you look up FBI testing standards for duty ammo. Some of the very brands you mentioned have been tested specifically to verify they met minimum penetration standards after passing through the very barriers you've listed as items of concern. If you want an extra bit of insurance to be sure you'll have positive penetration and expansion though common barriers like car doors or auto glass, look for "bonded" hollowpoints such as Winchester Ranger "Bonded," Federal Tactical "Bonded," Remington Golden Saber "Bonded," Speer Gold Dot, or Corbon's solid copper DPX round.

I do not recommend FMJ as carry ammo in most cases because 99% of it is anemic ammunition that many departments specifically ban from carry on duty. FMJ is almost always loaded toward the lower end of the "acceptable" range of pressures and velocities for any given caliber. As such, it may very well be the FMJ bullet that fails to penetrate as expected or worse, causes a stoppage. Furthermore, there's little point in "switching" ammo with a pistol. No legally defensible shooting is likely to allow you the time to make the decision to switch in the first place so this is a non-sequitur.

To answer your latter questions; yes, as JHP bullet can go through a typical car door but, remember the door is composed of multiple layers of materials with several structures that can disrupt the path of any projectile going through the door. Typical auto body steel provides little resistance to any handgun bullet in a service caliber (9mm or larger). However, reinforcing structures designed to prevent vehicle intrusion, window regulators and the autoglass itself provide additonal barriers that may deflect or defeat a typical handgun bullet. Typical wallboard (sheetrock) and most interior residential construction is no different. That's why we often call hiding behind a car door concealment rather than cover. It is a little late to plan for it now but, perhaps at next year's CHL Forum day, we can make arraingments to do a class on cover/concealment that includes an opportunity for attendees to shoot through car doors or wallboards for demonstration purposes. The bottomline is, at typical handgun velocities, FMJ ammo provides little or no additional value with respect to penetrating barriers.

-GM

Hollow point bullets are designed to expand from the hydraulic pressure that is created as it goes through muscle or other tissues. That's why they are tested using ballistic gelatin or water jugs to simulate tissue. Going through walls, glass, car doors, etc should cause little to no expansion. However, if the hollow point cavity gets plugged up with something along the way like sheetrock, or heavy clothing, that can negatively affect expansion.

Since the subject seems to tend toward cover and penetration, I would like to provide a link that may help to enlighten some of you as to the "myth of cover" as it were.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published.htm

The second article listed is entitled "The Myth of Cover". Extremely informative, and an excellent read. It is a PDF, so I couldn't link the article directly. Sorry. He has some other great articles on there as well, if you are so inclined.



FWIW; The author, and primary instructor of this school is an old neighbor of mine. Great guy, and always an extremely interesting conversation to be had.

(I am in no way affiliated with his training school, and I do not profit from posting his link.)

You know, penetrating a car door seems like an _offensive_ scenario to me, not a defensive one. I'm not saying there are scenarios where that would never occur, just that I think much more about being able to stop a threat in front of me or to move myself to effective cover so that I may escape the threat. In these scenarios, I know that JHP serves me well in discouraging bad guys _and_ preventing overpenetration (I'm rather fond of calling JHPs "Safety rounds"). All my rounds are JHP when carrying.

lkd wrote:You know, penetrating a car door seems like an _offensive_ scenario to me, not a defensive one. I'm not saying there are scenarios where that would never occur, just that I think much more about being able to stop a threat in front of me or to move myself to effective cover so that I may escape the threat. In these scenarios, I know that JHP serves me well in discouraging bad guys _and_ preventing overpenetration (I'm rather fond of calling JHPs "Safety rounds"). All my rounds are JHP when carrying.

It might not be an offensive shoot. Drive by shooting happens when some one in car open fire from his car on someone outside his car.

Beiruty wrote:

lkd wrote:You know, penetrating a car door seems like an _offensive_ scenario to me, not a defensive one. I'm not saying there are scenarios where that would never occur, just that I think much more about being able to stop a threat in front of me or to move myself to effective cover so that I may escape the threat. In these scenarios, I know that JHP serves me well in discouraging bad guys _and_ preventing overpenetration (I'm rather fond of calling JHPs "Safety rounds"). All my rounds are JHP when carrying.

It might not be an offensive shoot. Drive by shooting happens when some one in car open fire from his car on someone outside his car.

Sure, but that's precisely my point -- assailant is driving by and shooting from an open window. Your objective is to avoid the threat (bullets). Technically speaking, you''re already in an ambush situation and the BG will attack from whatever way yields best advantage. Shooting back becomes VERY problematic because it's a fast moving target and you're engaging in a way that doesn't allow you to quickly judge lead time and bystander risk, not to mention you're going to chew up precious seconds with the draw stroke. In such a scenario, your primary objective would be to find cover, not to take such a massive risk by shooting back. If the vehicle was stationary, you'd shoot through window for COM hit, or to keep bad buy's head down while you (again) get cover or leave the threat area.

Again, I'll take JHPs, and in that scenario, I'll likely still have every bullet long after the bad guy's gone, because, in that precise scenario, there's far more risk of me shooting what I DON'T want to hit.

G.C.Montgomery wrote:No legally defensible shooting is likely to allow you the time to make the decision to switch in the first place so this is a non-sequitur.

Well said. Once you start digging through your trunk for those APFSDS rounds, you have moved into a completly different realm.

Solving the problem with the tools you have at the moment is dependant upon your level of training and mindset. Since you don't get to pick the place/time/conditions, the best you can do is pick a reliable tool and learn to use it under every condition imaginable. Keep it simple.

CaptWoodrow10 wrote:Since the subject seems to tend toward cover and penetration, I would like to provide a link that may help to enlighten some of you as to the "myth of cover" as it were.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published.htm

The second article listed is entitled "The Myth of Cover". Extremely informative, and an excellent read. It is a PDF, so I couldn't link the article directly. Sorry. He has some other great articles on there as well, if you are so inclined.



FWIW; The author, and primary instructor of this school is an old neighbor of mine. Great guy, and always an extremely interesting conversation to be had.

(I am in no way affiliated with his training school, and I do not profit from posting his link.)

Paul Howe is the founder and owner of CSAT. I've had a couple opportunities to train with him directly rather than getting training from one of his prospective instructors. He's got a very direct but, down to earth approach to the material he's willing to share with civilians. While the last group I attended with felt he was being a bit too stern at times, I enjoyed every minute of it and recommend him. He's been making noises about retirement of late and I think it will be a shame for us as a shooting community to lose him as an instructor. He's got too much information and too broad a skill set to pass along to the next generation of professional gunmen and legally armed citizens alike.