1911 fever

[Fire1141]

I have caught the fever for a 1911 style pistol. I believe the only hold up is my lack of understanding of how you shoot one. Couple questions. When the hammer is back, how do you get it back forward without firing? Also do you cycle the slide only (like my xd) to chamber? If someone could take the time to explain the process from safe to fire ready, back to safe it would make me feel a whole lot better. Since there are many, I'm mainly concerned with colt defender and kimbers. Thanks

[texjames]

I recently purchased a Kimber Ultra Carry II and the instructions had some info i had never heard before.I have had some 1911's before.
I had a Colt Gold Cup back in the late 80's and still have a AMT hardballer.The Kimber instructions say to never ease the hammer down to go ahead and snap it.
It says that repeated easing down can may mar the sear tip which will cause a substandard trigger pull. It also says not to let the slide slam closed on a empty chamber unloaded under full spring pressure as it can cause premature wear and loosening on a match grade 1911. You are supposed to pull back the slide to release the slide catch then ease the slide forward manually then snap it. Also says when loading a round to not ride the slide forward but to let the slide go under full spring pressure.I carry my 1911's cocked and locked , the manual says to carry with an empty chamber.Until i got this gun i had never followed those instructions.I had manually eased the hammer forward many times with a round chambered.

[The Annoyed Man]

I have caught the fever for a 1911 style pistol. I believe the only hold up is my lack of understanding of how you shoot one. Couple questions. When the hammer is back, how do you get it back forward without firing? Also do you cycle the slide only (like my xd) to chamber? If someone could take the time to explain the process from safe to fire ready, back to safe it would make me feel a whole lot better. Since there are many, I'm mainly concerned with colt defender and kimbers. Thanks

You don't "get it back forward." You keep it cocked and locked with the thumb safety engaged, because that is how the pistol was designed to be carried. You don't want to try and lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. It can be done, but it is HIGHLY not recommended!

If it is carrying safety you are worried about, the pistol design is actually extremely safe. Many would argue (and I do not mean to start another 1911/Glock war) that the 1911 design is much more safe than most other semi-automatic pistol designs, particularly double action, or striker fired designs. In order for a 1911 pistol to fire, the following things all have to occur simultaneously. If any one item is left out, the entire system fails to fire:

1. The thumb safety must be disengaged.
2. The grip safety must be depressed (which happens naturally when you have the pistol in a firing grip).
3. The trigger must be pulled.

And, on some 1911 pistols, the firing pin has some kind of blocking mechanism which requires that the trigger be actively pulled in order to disengage the block. This is to prevent accidental discharge caused by the firing pin momentum overcoming the firing pin spring tension if the pistol is dropped. Other 1911s, like my Springfield loaded, accomplish this by means of a titanium firing pin and a heavier spring, such that the pin's momentum can never overcome the spring unless the hammer drives it forward.

The drill for lowering the hammer on a loaded 1911 pistol is to:

1. Make sure the pistol is pointed in a safe direction.
2. Dump the magazine.
3. Disengage the thumb safety
4. Cycle the slide to eject the chambered round.
5. Either a) pinch the trigger between thumb and index finger of one hand and pull the trigger to release the hammer and lower it gently, OR b) dry-fire it.

Lots of people are antsy about carrying a 1911 (or any other pistol, for that matter) cocked and locked. But this is actually one of the safest ways there is to carry. People joke about "Glock Leg" (which is vastly over-rated by the way; the Glock also being a very safe design), but I have never heard a "1911 Leg" joke. Ever.

[BobCat]

Ok, starting with the pistol unloaded, magazine empty and hammer down - as it would be in the box, new. If the chamber were empty but the magazine loaded, the pistol would be said to be in condition 3.

Pick it up - obviously pointing in a safe direction with your finger outside the trigger guard - you know about safe gun handling so I'll lay off more of that - press the magazine release and extract the magazine. Pull back the slide and check the chamber - lock it back with the slide release lever on the left side of the pistol.

Note that if the magazine really is empty, you can leave it in and just pull back the slide, letting the mag follower activate the slide stop. The reason they say not to do this is that if there is a round in the mag and you let the slide go forward, you've just cocked the hammer, chambered a round and made the pistol ready to fire.

Anyway, now the mag is out and the slide is locked back. If it is a brand new pistol you might want to field strip and clean it at this point. If not, and what you want to do is load it, just load the magazine, insert it - make it seat by slapping it with your palm, "like in the movies" and release the slide to chamber a round. This will leave the hammer cocked. The safety is off, the pistol is said to be in condition zero. Move the safety up - it clicks - the pistol is in condition 1 as most people who carry the 1911 carry it, holstered. To fire, move the safety down (to condition 0) and actuate the trigger.

There are two schools of thought on how to "drop the slide" - i.e. release it from being locked back, to chamber a round. One says to use the slide stop lever - move it down to let the slide go forward. The other is to "slingshot" the slide - leave the lever alone, there are rounds in the magazine holding the follower down, so the slide will not be held back - once it is pulled back a little the slide release will drop down out of the way. Someone with a strong opinion will be here soon to voice it. I slingshot.

People will tell you never to let the slide zip forward on an empty chamber, but to lower it slowly. I subscribe to this but it is not really necessary - it came about when very light trigger jobs were popular; the momentum of the slide slamming home can jar the trigger off the sear, allowing the hammer to follow the slide down.

If you wish to unload the pistol, remove the magazine and rack the slide to extract the chambered round. Inspect the chamber visually and with your finger to make sure it is empty, and ease the slide forward into battery. Then you can either dry-fire or pinch the hammer between thumb and forefinger of your off hand, actuate the trigger, and lower the hammer slowly. The only time you want to do this is to put the pistol away unloaded. If it is lying on the table, leave the slide locked back so it is obviously "safe". If you loaded it, either shoot it or holster it in condition 1. Condition 2 is chamber loaded, hammer down. You need to thumb cock to fire. Most people will tell you to avoid condition 2.

Someone who knows more will be along in a while. Have fun!

Regards,
Andrew

Ok, TAM posted while I was typing. Listen to him - I'm only posting this because I put some time and effort into typing it.

[jester]

You don't "get it back forward." You keep it cocked and locked with the thumb safety engaged, because that is how the pistol was designed to be carried. You don't want to try and lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. It can be done, but it is HIGHLY not recommended!

If you're not comfortable carrying in condition 1, don't carry a 1911 (or hi-power.)

[dicion]

When the hammer is back, how do you get it back forward without firing?
Also do you cycle the slide only (like my xd) to chamber?

1) You don't. Only way to drop the hammer is with the trigger, a proper grip, and the safety disengaged. Eg, when you are firing.

2) Yes.

A wise old man once told me that you should never, ever, have to touch the hammer on a 1911.
1911's have been found stored 50+ years with the hammer locked back, and still worked flawlessly.

[The Annoyed Man]

To expound a little further on what BobCat said about carrying hammer down...

The primary safety on a 1911 pistol (actually the secondary, the primary being your brain) is the thumb safety. It engages by fitting into a notch in the slide when it is in the raised position. See the picture of my Kimber below:



Notice that part of the thumb safety is actually fit into the notch in the slide. This locks the slide in the forward position so that it cannot cycle at all. Furthermore, when engaged, the trigger cannot be pulled as it is locked into position also. But, the thumb safety cannot be engaged when the pistol is in the hammer-down state. Thus, when you carry the pistol hammer down, you lose that locking of the slide feature, you've disengaged 1/3 of the total safety system, and you've made the pistol LESS safe to carry, not more so.

Kimber's advice not to carry on a loaded chamber must apply only to hammer down carry, as the pistol is actually more safe to carry with the hammer cocked and locked than hammer down if there is a round in the chamber. Either that, or that is language their lawyers made them put in there... ...or possibly they were referring to the non-carry transportation of the firearm. And it goes without saying that a 1911 carried hammer down on an empty chamber has exactly the same self-defense value as a brick.

[dicion]

And it goes without saying that a 1911 carried hammer down on an empty chamber has exactly the same self-defense value as a brick.

I dunno... It might be a little better than a brick. It could have sharper edges, depending on the model
Also, It is easier to hold to beat someone with than a brick, especially to those of us with smaller hands.
Third, a brick, being clay, can break easier when you hit something/one with it. A 1911 won't.

And there you have it, the 3 ways in which an unloaded, or condition 2 1911 is indeed, slightly better than a brick

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More good info ;)

[The Annoyed Man]

And it goes without saying that a 1911 carried hammer down on an empty chamber has exactly the same self-defense value as a brick.

I dunno... It might be a little better than a brick. It could have sharper edges, depending on the model
Also, It is easier to hold to beat someone with than a brick, especially to those of us with smaller hands.
Third, a brick, being clay, can break easier when you hit something/one with it. A 1911 won't.

And there you have it, the 3 ways in which an unloaded, or condition 2 1911 is indeed, slightly better than a brick

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More good info ;)

And following the link dicion gives above leads to "Is "Cocked and Locked" Dangerous?" by Syd (please note the part I highlighted in red):

Q: The one and only problem I've ever had with the classic 1911 is having to carry "cocked & locked.” In your opinion, are the double action only models offered by Para-Ordnance the way to go when safety is concerned?

There are really two parts to your question so I'll deal with them separately.

First, yes the P-O LDA is an excellent option when the cocked and locked 1911 is a problem. Charles Riggs wrote a nice article for me on the LDA which addresses this:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/para-ord-745.htm

Second, I believe that the concern about the safety of the “cocked and locked” (condition 1) pistol is more a matter of perceptions than reality. It looks scary. When you're new to the 1911, it feels scary. I started out with wheel guns and it took me some time to get used to cocked and locked. But, given the huge number of M1911 pistols which are out there in service, you would think that we would hear more about accidental discharges if this were a problem. The fact is that we don't because they don't go off by themselves. I have only heard one story from one police officer who claimed one went off in his holster when it bumped against a banister as he descended a set of stairs, but when I pushed him for details, he refused to say anything more. He wouldn't tell me the kind of holster, if the gun had been modified, its state of repair or any other circumstances. This led me to believe that he was either blowing smoke or there was something about the gun he didn't want to tell me.

What do we mean by “cocked and locked”? The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-cock notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.

But what about the cocked and locked pistol taking a hard hit on the hammer? Could it go off then? Listen to this report from Terry Erwin:

"About ten years ago, I was working as an armed-plain clothed-security officer. During a struggle with an arrested subject the Combat Commander I was carrying cocked and locked, holstered in a Bianchi "Pancake" on my strong side hip, struck the center door jam of a set of double doors. The center door jam was knocked loose, and two belt loops were torn off of my jeans. The hammer was bent inward and the safety would not move. A gunsmith had to press out the safety, hammer pin, and sear pin. The edge of the sear had cracked off, and a piece of one hammer hook also cracked off. The gun did not discharge upon that impact. I have carried several Colt's, including that repaired Commander for most of my adult life, and have never once worried about the weapon (myself or someone else is a different story, but not the gun)."

The 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol so it has to be cocked in order to fire. People deal with this in one of three ways: cocked and locked (condition 1), or they chamber a round and carefully lower the hammer (condition 2) so they have to thumb cock the gun to fire it, or they carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when they bring it into action (condition 3). I would advise either condition 1 or 3 for home defense, but not condition 2. I don't advise condition 2 under any circumstances. (For more discussion on the conditions see “The Conditions of Readiness”) If you are only using the gun for home defense, there is nothing wrong with leaving it in condition 3 with a loaded magazine but with an empty chamber – as long as you have the presence of mind to load the weapon under stress. (Don't give me a "duh" on that one because weird things happen to one's mind when someone is trying to get into your house at 3 AM).

When the gun is cocked and locked, the sear is blocked from releasing the hammer. Further, unless a firing grip is on the pistol, thumb safety swept off, and the trigger is pulled, the gun will not go off. For my money, this is much safer than a Glock or some of the other new pistol designs which have no external safety. The Glock, by the way, is also pre-cocked which is why it can have a much lighter trigger than a real double action gun. It could be said that the Glock is “cocked and unlocked” which is called “condition zero” with the M1911. Anecdotally, we hear of many more "accidental discharges" with Glocks than with M1911 pattern guns. The 1911 has two manual safeties. It may look scary, but it is really much safer than many current designs.

If an M1911 has been butchered internally, all bets are off, and I have seen a couple like that. But if the gun is in good repair, it is safe and will not go off unless the thumb safety is swept off, a firing grip is on the handle, and the trigger is pulled. If you buy a used M1911 pattern pistol, be sure to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith just to insure that the gun has not been modified or made dangerous by a tinkerer and that it is in good working order.

A sideline: of the pistols I have carried, the M1911 is the only one I carry with the safeties engaged. I carry S&W and Beretta DA/SA guns with the safety off. Glocks and wheel guns don't have a safety at all (and no, I don't consider the trigger flange on the Glock a real manual safety). In this respect, the cocked and locked M1911 is the safest pistol. It is unique in the fact that it has not one but two manual safeties which have to be acted upon to make the gun fire.

Now, to argue the other direction for just a second, do I feel safer with a true DA/SA with a firing pin block and a manual safety like a S&W or Beretta? Yes, in an absolute sense, I do when I'm in the world of theoretical possibilities, but again, I think this is more a matter of feeling than reality. Some weird combination of events could conspire to take the safety off, push down the grip safety and pull the trigger all at the same time, but I can't visualize what that circumstance would be. Nevertheless, when I’m backpacking and I know the gun may have to ride in my backpack and flop around in a tent with me, I will often carry a S&W DA/SA just because some of these strange possibilities come to mind. For the purposes for which a gun is needed, I feel safer with the M1911 because I know I'm going to shoot it better and faster than these other options.

I have seen "accidental discharges" with M1911's, but without exception they have been instances in which the finger was on the trigger or the fire control group had been modified by an incompetent. I have yet to document a single case in which an M1911 simply experienced a catastrophic failure and went off while cocked and locked. And I do hunt for such stories because this is a concern for a lot of people.

Another interesting “safety feature” of the M1911 was first observed by Massad Ayoob. In the event that a bad guy might get your gun away from you, confusion about the controls of the cocked and locked M1911 could cause him enough hesitation to give you a chance to either get the gun back or flee. The current generation of thugs have cut their teeth on double action semi-autos and revolvers and many do not know how the M1911 operates. Ayoob tested this with people who were unfamiliar with pistols by giving them unloaded pistols of various designs and measuring how long it took them to figure out the controls and make the hammer drop. The M1911 proved to be considerably slower to fire than double action guns in the hands of those who are unfamiliar with the gun.


Q: Is the cocked and locked M1911 a problem for people who are new to firearms and want to keep one for home defense?

In my opinion, cocked and locked does not present either a safety or handling problem. In fact, I would be inclined to argue the other way, that it is very intuitive and simple, and very quickly brought into action. 90 years of successful service tends to bear this out. All you have to do is to sweep the thumb safety down with your thumb and the gun is ready to fire. It is a natural motion and people learn it quickly.

Other issues come into play when you’re considering keeping an 1911 loaded for home defense, such as if you have small children in the home and how much access your friends have to your home, but there is nothing inherently dangerous with having a cocked an locked gun at the ready. If you have really small children who are too young to train on firearms safety, then condition 3 – empty chamber – is definitely the way to go because the child will not know to rack the slide to load it and they will lack the strength in their hands and arms to do it. If you are a very social person who has a lot of parties and people running through your house all the time, then you really should wear it, concealed of course, so that the pistol is under your immediate control and you don’t have to worry about someone finding it and doing something stupid. If that’s not possible, lock it up or find a smarter circle of friends who won’t go through your stuff when you’re not looking.

Finally, the real cure for cocked and locked anxiety is to get "un-new" to the gun. Shoot it, get used to it, learn it so that you don't have to think about it. Familiarity will dispel that anxiety. Get some training if at all possible. Pistols really require some training and practice to use effectively. A good training session with a qualified professional trainer will help to separate the fact from the fantasy about what you can actually do with your pistol when the chips are down.

I feel that the 1911 is the fastest, best shooting pistol which has ever been built, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some other good designs out there. You should be comfortable with your gun, and if you just can’t get over that fear about the cocked hammer, find another gun that feels good to you. I love the 1911 because of the way it shoots, but I had some nervousness with them when I was new to them. Practice and familiarity made it go away.

"Due to misplaced concerns about safety and liability, the police have shunned the Condition One (Cocked and Locked) SA auto, mostly in favor of DA autos that aren't any easier to use than a DA revolver. Claims that the SA auto is unsafe or requires special training are hogwash, something that too many people accept without challenge. And if you don't believe it, come see me at any CTASAA course and I'll prove it to you." – Chuck Taylor

[Ol Zeke]

Condition 3, empty chamber, hammer down and loaded magazine is like "Safety After OSHA". Definitely safe but not very practical. Also I believe OSHA would probably requre a hardhat and steel toed shoes to go along with the safety glasses and hearing protection.

condition 2, round in the chamber, hammer down, loaded magazine is ill advised. If you have one of the Series 80 Colts or the Series "II" Kimber the firing pin block safety makes this better but still ill advised (IMO).

Condition 1, round in the chamber, hammer cocked safety on is the best over all, however, no Manufacturer's Manual is gong to tell you this because the manuals are written by lawyers (CYA). The gun must be Gripped, the Saftey taken Off and pressure applied to the trigger for it to fire. Safe and READY.

[KinnyLee]

Condition One only on 1911s. You don't want to lower your hammer either with a chambered round. 1) It's not design to be carried that way. 2) Fingers may slip and having a ND. 3) Doing so repeatly will more than likely damage the sear.

[KFP]

Being a visual person, I find this to be helpful in understanding the operation: http://www.m1911.org/STI1911animation2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The animation allows you to make various portions of the pistol transparent or to simply disappear.

[Quahog]

Good post, KFP

[KFP]

Good post, KFP

I can't make claim to much other than to thank a number of forums and resources on the web - I tend to be fairly good at remembering where I've seen certain things and can share with others.

[Quahog]

Well, the pointer was good and that's what the thanks was for!