Houston robbery video-Would you draw & shoot?

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Let's get a discussion started on tactics to use during a particular robbery.

First of all, fire up another Internet session besides the one on which you
are reading TexasCHLForum.com.

Watch this video of a gang robbing a convenience store on Houston's
North Freeway on 3/17/09, at 1045 PM. By the way, there is rash of
such robberies going on. Perhaps these guys are the perps in them.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6d9_1240281549" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you were the customer in the cowboy hat, had your CHL, and your gun
on you, what would you do?

It takes a few seconds for the perps to run through the door. It seems that
Perps 1 and 3 through the entry have semi-auto handguns. The middle guy
just seems to have his hands in his pockets.

If the customer drew right away, he might be shot since they are running up
to him. It's hard to draw on a drawn gun.

But then they shoo him away from the counter, about 20 feet from the register.
Then might be time to draw and start firing but here's the problems, IMHO:
1. He has limited cover, just the low counter. Plus it looks like the typical
cluttered C-store, obstructing sight lines.
2. If the customer opened up on the bad guys, he risks hitting the clerk as
well, who is standing in the same general area.
3. If he is a revolver man he has to strike each perp only twice before going
for his speed loader. Remember - he is going against at least 2 semi-auto's.
4. They appear to be wearing bulky cold weather gear so the CHL's ammo would
have to have good penetration power.
5. Would it be best to simply chase them out the door and engage them in
the parking lot?
6. We can watch the video at our leisure and we know the perps did not
shoot either the clerk or the customer, but they could have.

Comments from the peanut gallery are now encouraged.

[stevie_d_64]

The first guy that came in the door appeared to be the only one armed...Never assume the others are not...But you have one definitly armed...

The last thing I noticed that would be a problem for one of us, would be that while the other two suspects (not showing a firearm) were rummaging in the cashiers till, the armed thug was frisking the Cowboy...

Guess what will happen when #1 finds your gun still holstered???

All three did not appear to move around like your typical gangstah hoods or whatever you want to call them...

And on the way out, they had to go back to the counter to get the electromagnetic lock to be released so they could get away...Noticed they pulled a little interference in front of the door on the way out...

I saw some distinctive needlework on the back of one of the jackets...Someone is going to notice that soon...

Bottom line this is not a good situation to be in in the first place...

[CWOOD]

You are right. Not a good situation at all.

Initially, I would not have intervened with the robbery. Cowboy Hat was wise to drift on down out of the action. It didn't appear that the clerk was in immediate danger.

HOWEVER, when BGw/gun starts heading down to ME, that changes the equation. Now I am having a gun pointed directly at me...the threat of deadly force. As stevie_d_64 says, if he tries to jack me up and finds a gun, things begin to deteriorate pretty quickly. If I do nothing, at the very least my weapon will be given over to the bad guys. At the other end of the spectrum, finding me armed could just set him off and I could be beaten or even shot.

I guess my bottom line in this situation, if they are not violently attacking the clerk, I would not intevene...until they point a gun at ME. I will try my best to NOT BE DISARMED. I would rather take my chances to draw and fire rather than take my chances to be disarmed and trust in their compassion not to blow my brains out.

I would expect to be hit by a round if I do this. But at least they won't have time to take an unhurried, well-aimed shot at me as might be the case if I surrender my weapon.

It is not a good situation.

[Oldgringo]

I guess there are 'emergencies', real and imagined. Agreed, this is not a good situation brought on by being in a "Stop 'n Rob' in that part of Houston at 1045 PM.

Had it been absolutely necessary for me to be in this place at this time of night, I would have had my hand on, or near my gun when I entered the place. After that, who knows?

[bdickens]

If you look at the second half of the video - the same scene taken from behind the register - you notice that Cowboy Hat has clear fields of fire to all three robbers.

[Oldgringo]

If you look at the second half of the video - the same scene taken from behind the register - you notice that Cowboy Hat has clear fields of fire to all three robbers.

Yes. That and time to pick and choose his targets... if he was armed AND so inclined.

[srothstein]

Well, from what I see, his best chance of intervening is not drawing his weapon at all. When the one bad guy comes over and starts to frisk him is the perfect time to intervene. Physical force, grabbing the gun to disarm and control him, would be my option. This would work to get me time to do whatever I wanted, either then drawing and using him as cover (think hostage) or shooting him.

There are other options, but knowing how it is going down from the videos, this would be my choice. We all need to recognize that we need to be able to defend ourselves with other means than the gun, at least a few good moves until we can draw.

Probably the other best option is to take advantage of their ignoring him as he walks away to get his gun out, then bringing it up shooting as the one BG comes at him with the gun drawn. This is based on the action and reaction speeds, but he could get his shots off first, I think, especially if he got the weapon in his hand before they knew he was armed.

[LaUser]

Any attempt to stop an armed robbery in progress usually results in a shoot out. In this case, the robbers have the upper hand through the element of surprise. The cashier and "cowboy" are at an extreme disadvantage. The question is this, is the money in the cash register worth getting an innocent shot and possibly killed. My opinion is no.

Now, if one of the robbers started shooting first, then there is no question the "cowboy" should defend himself and drawn and shoot if he were armed.

[ClarkLZeuss]

I would rather take my chances to draw and fire rather than take my chances to be disarmed and trust in their compassion not to blow my brains out.

One thing this video taught me is that if you are at the scene of a robbery, you will very likely be a co-victim of that robbery. And the worst thing for a CHLer would be getting disarmed. As Nicolas Cage says in Lord of War, "The first and most important rule of gun-running is never get shot with your own merchandise." There's a world of difference between allowing your wallet to be taken and letting your gun get stolen.

In general, I think we have to assume that someone who is threatening deadly force may very well use it, for any or no reason. Because the temptation is to think that robbers will leave us be if we just give into their demands. Or that they're only interested in the cash register, not the bystanders' loot. Although the two innocents in that video escape with their lives, we only know that from 20/20 hindsight, and philosophically I despise the notion of allowing my life to be in the hands of a thug. So, with this in mind, if I were Cowboy Hat guy, I would have fired. The real question, therefore, is when should this be done? The obvious answer seems to be when the robbers' attention was diverted...i.e. not when they first storm in, guns drawn, nor when they later approach and frisk Cowboy. What strikes me about this is what a short window of time that was (when they weren't focused on him), and how you've got to make a split-second decision. You pretty much have to decide this kind of thing beforehand.

Sidenote, it's scenarios like this that make me glad I have 17 rounds! As much as I'm drawn to the idea of a single-stack gun (which I may eventually buy, for certain occasions), I think having as many chances as possible to stop a threat is the way to go.

[tfrazier]

Cowboy Hat did the right thing, considering being caught off guard and having three assailants in front of him.

Had I been in his shoes (and disregarding the fact that I would likely never be caught off guard in a convenience store like that) I would have done the exact same thing initially and hoped they can just get what they came for and leave with nobody getting hurt.

But, on the second approach toward me by the armed robber I would have been instantly moving sideways, drawing and firing. BG is approaching either to search me, take my wallet, or to kill me. I assume his intent is the latter.

Very bad spot to be in, considering there's three of them, two definitely armed, and only one of me. But I'm toting 35 rounds of .45 and I'm not going to miss BG1 at that distance. BGs 2 and 3 may survive if they can move fast enough and take cover (I will be moving for whatever cover I can find at the same time), and then its just going to be a pinned down fire fight until someone runs out of ammo or reinforcements arrive.

Now I've spouted off, I'll go watch the video a second time and see if it changes my mind any.

UPDATE EDIT:
Okay, I see now that Cowboy Hat was behind the counter area with no sideways escape route, so that blows up my "move for cover while shooting" strategy. I still think I would have started firing on the second approach and prayed my 300+ rounds per week of practice made me quicker and more accurate than the three of them put together. No way am I going to assume a man approaching me with a weapon pointed at me is not intending to kill me.

[CWOOD]

Probably the other best option is to take advantage of their ignoring him as he walks away to get his gun out, then bringing it up shooting as the one BG comes at him with the gun drawn. This is based on the action and reaction speeds, but he could get his shots off first, I think, especially if he got the weapon in his hand before they knew he was armed.

I would like to add this excellent recommendation from Steve to my response.

We had a drill at our IDPA match (Texas Tactical) today. It was a four string fast draw drill where you are standing and almost contact distance. At buzzer you sidestep, draw and fire 2. Repeat with 2 additional targets and finally draw and fire 2 at each of the three targets. My draw and fire 2 averaged about 1.25 seconds. Draw and fire 6 was 2.6 seconds. I am not making any comparison of IDPA to this situation, but it gives and indication of the timeframe within which we have to draw. At the match no one was under 1.15 seconds in my squad and there were some over 2.50 seconds. Obviously not training but a good practice drill.

I am past the point in my life where I am going to be too effective trying to wrestle with some 18year old punk. I may try to sweep his weapon aside when I shoot him or try to otherwise distract him. But, like I said, my bottom line is to NOT be disarmed by him.

[Beiruty]

I will do exactly as the cowboy did, retreat have some distance when the BG are busy looting the Register, Draw and double tap each at very close targets 1 and 2 are very close to each other. The 3rd BG, when under fire, will most probably flee or not he will receive the rest of my 12 rd before I have to reload. I Should not hit the lady at 7 yrds if did happen than I have to live by my actions. She may freak out and get into confusion of the gun fire. I assume armed robbery could end in killing all witnesses.

One thing I may do is to grab the lady and retreat together and clear her out of the line of fire, since I most probably I would be engaging in a shoot out.

The only advantage I can see, how cool I would be when threatened by 3 raged BGs. I assume I will turn into auto pilot and terminate existing threats.



Note: this is a very good training video for handgun defense course.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Thank you to everyone who watched the video and responded with
their strategic thinking.

Although I have not taken any defensive handgun courses, I believe that
at the time they moved me away from the register and they forgot about
me for a few seconds I would draw and shoot. If I got shot, at least I would
have done so while I was putting JHP's downrange to some robbing scum.

People who rob others many times have a drug problem and a morality
deficit. These are not people to whom you can give the benefit of the
doubt.

[srothstein]

Beiruty,

Just one quick piece of advice. If you ever do get into a shooting with multiple BGs, don't go for the closest ones first. Go for the greatest threat first. They are not necessarily the same.

For police training, we will usually have one scenario where there is a close person with a pistol, a medium range with a shotgun, and a farther range suspect with a rifle. The order we teach to shoot them is the shotgun, then the rifle, then the pistol. This is based on the odds of their being able to hit you and injure/kill you.

Without rewatching the video to check, I think there were times when the closest to the Cowboy was the least dangerous as his back was turned. The unarmed one would be the least threat. This additional fraction of a second in choosing targets can make a difference in life or death.

And unfortunately, this is one of the flaws with most of the IPSC type shooting contests. They almost always have you shooting based on distance or location, instead of threat. Of course, with silhouette targets, the threat level is hard to change.

[BigDaddyMac]

I noticed that cowboy turned his back when he walked away from the counter. He just gave up his only chance to regain the initiative, and he lost sight of the threat.

I think it goes without saying that if you intend to defend yourself, you can't lose sight of the threat.