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Here's an eye-opener for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M

That's been posted at least once before, a year or two ago. The general consensus, as I recall, is that it doesn't demonstrate a problem with the safe as much as a problem with the installation, or lack thereof. Fact is, people don't stand their safes up in the middle of an empty room where thieves can knock them over and go after them with a five foot pry bar. They're bolted into closets and corners where they're impervious to that type of attack. The video is a sales pitch, not an public service announcement.

P.S. A safe is as man made...anything man made can be circumvented, given enough time and the right tools

I saw an episode on tv where this guy used an oxyacetylene torch to burn thru a HUGE safe all night long and dismantled the sinks to fill 5 gallon buckets of water to cool his welding..he did his work ALL NIGHT LONG after he and his cohorts taped up the windows to hide the flash of the burning steel and sparks, the dude stole MILLIONS in diamonds and stuff in FL and stuff like that

If someone is determined..it doesn't matter what you do..they will get to it...making the act of getting the object of their desires less cost effective than the profit they get usually makes a scumbag criminal look for easier pickins.

Such as a big mean dog, mean scary wife with 12 Ga, alarm system...you get the point!

Well... OK.

I have a Gun Safe, and it probably has some sort of fire rating. But that's not my purpose for having it. All of my guns get put in the safe when the grandchildern are here.

A safe is like anything else. You get what you pay for. Most people would not pay $6-7,000.00 for a TL-30 x 6 gun safe. It is a hard sell to get banks to purchase safes of that quality. Most use a TL-15 to protect the cash. They have other methods to prevent Torch and Tool attacks. Most use Heat and vibration sensors as well as Video with the ability to capture images remotely (I work in the industry). These are just a few methods and devices that can be converted to home use.

My suggestion would be to add a vibration and heat sensor to your home safe. These will tell if your safe is being torched open or being attacked by other methods. Your alarm company can do this for a fee. Make sure your safe is bolted down and kept out of site. Do not show your safe to your buddies. You never know who they will tell. NEVER ALLOW YOUR CHILDREN TO SEE THE CONTENTS. They have mouths and will tell their friends.

I responded to that video thusly:

Well, I own a Liberty safe. Notice that the "thieves" tipped the safe over on its back, AND, notice that the safe is not bolted to the floor. MY safe is bolted to the floor, and backed up to a brick exterior wall. You would have to tear the wall off my house to get into this safe in 1:45 minutes. By then, my pit bull would have gotten to you, and I'd have shot you multiple times with my bedside guns. No, the Liberty safe is not perfect, but proper installation makes a lot of difference.

Here is what I find irresponsible about the video...

For most of us, a good safe is a big investment, just like the salesman in the video said. My Liberty safe cost me $1,150.00 (plus tax) delivered, installed, and bolted to the floor. For me to save twice that amount before buying a much more expensive safe of similar capacity would have probably discouraged me from buying one at all. I would have instead invested in a $200 gun locker from Academy and left it at that. People of good conscience buy the best that they can afford to buy. Trying to lay a guilt trip on them because they could not afford more is just cheesey, and I cannot respect the huckster who would do that. If you can afford a Ferrari, by all means buy one and enjoy it, but don't belittle people who can only afford a Yugo. We all do the best that we can do.

Plus, what I couldn't say on the youtube site because of the limited number of characters you can post, to tear out that exterior wall of my home, you would have to defeat a wrought iron gate to get to that part of my driveway, and you would be VERY visible to my neighbors the whole time you were attacking the wall. To pull the safe over from the inside, you would have to find a way to tear it off its bolts, which would necessarily tip it over onto the door. By that time, you'd be dead. Plus, this is not an empty safe. It has the added weight of a number of rifles and pistols, not to mention several hundred rounds of ammo in different calibers.

Is my choice of protection perfect? No, it isn't. But it is pretty darn good for a safe in the $1,000 price range. But even if all you could afford is that $200 gun locker, a little bit of thought about where you're going to place it and how you're going to secure it to the floor can go a long way to improving your security picture. I would encourage anybody to spend as much as they can on a safe, but don't feel bad because you can't spend like a millionaire.

The Annoyed Man wrote:I responded to that video thusly:

Well, I own a Liberty safe. Notice that the "thieves" tipped the safe over on its back, AND, notice that the safe is not bolted to the floor. MY safe is bolted to the floor, and backed up to a brick exterior wall. You would have to tear the wall off my house to get into this safe in 1:45 minutes. By then, my pit bull would have gotten to you, and I'd have shot you multiple times with my bedside guns. No, the Liberty safe is not perfect, but proper installation makes a lot of difference.

Here is what I find irresponsible about the video...

For most of us, a good safe is a big investment, just like the salesman in the video said. My Liberty safe cost me $1,150.00 (plus tax) delivered, installed, and bolted to the floor. For me to save twice that amount before buying a much more expensive safe of similar capacity would have probably discouraged me from buying one at all. I would have instead invested in a $200 gun locker from Academy and left it at that. People of good conscience buy the best that they can afford to buy. Trying to lay a guilt trip on them because they could not afford more is just cheesey, and I cannot respect the huckster who would do that. If you can afford a Ferrari, by all means buy one and enjoy it, but don't belittle people who can only afford a Yugo. We all do the best that we can do.

Plus, what I couldn't say on the youtube site because of the limited number of characters you can post, to tear out that exterior wall of my home, you would have to defeat a wrought iron gate to get to that part of my driveway, and you would be VERY visible to my neighbors the whole time you were attacking the wall. To pull the safe over from the inside, you would have to find a way to tear it off its bolts, which would necessarily tip it over onto the door. By that time, you'd be dead. Plus, this is not an empty safe. It has the added weight of a number of rifles and pistols, not to mention several hundred rounds of ammo in different calibers.

Is my choice of protection perfect? No, it isn't. But it is pretty darn good for a safe in the $1,000 price range. But even if all you could afford is that $200 gun locker, a little bit of thought about where you're going to place it and how you're going to secure it to the floor can go a long way to improving your security picture. I would encourage anybody to spend as much as they can on a safe, but don't feel bad because you can't spend like a millionaire.

I agree. One of the most important things is to know that you are buying a Hugo. Do some research. Buy what you can afford. I have seen cheap WalMart safes in millionairs homes. They have no idea about ratings or levels of security. Even a low dollar safe can be made more secure. I personally have a Sentry fire safe inside of a Cannon gun safe. I put my important papers inside of the Sentry Safe. My safe is tied into my alarm system and anchored to the floor. I also have another smaller Cannon pistol safe in my garage for high dollar tools. It is anchored into the concrete and also tied into my alarm system. I have lined each of my safes with 5/8" sheet rock to add fire protection. Neither of my safes are fire rated, that is why I made sure to put a small fire rated Sentry inside of my Gun safe.

As I do not sell safes (I only service them), I would reccommend that you buy what you can afford and use common sense. You can buy a safe nearly anywhere nowadays. It is up to you to make them secure. I can't tell you how many times I have picked open the dial lock to find the combination not locked - time to open, about 10 seconds. We have all seen the rash of ATM thefts. There is no way to make anything burglar proof. If you are insuring jewlerry or other high value items, check with your insurance company prior to making a safe purchase. Some of them set requirements for TL ratings.

My safe is about as secure as I can make it, within my means, it's anchored to concrete (something I know how to do quite well) and it has pins that go in the top and bottom as well as the sides, unlike the safe in the video. I don't think those guys would have gotten into that safe quite as "easily" if there had been pins in the top and bottom, and they sure wouldn't have that much room to work around mine, even if the dogs would let them.

I am not in the "safe" business, but here's my layman's understanding of safes . . .

Category 1: Cheap safes from places like K-Mart. They'll keep out small children and inquisitive (but not malicious!) teens, but are not much more secure than a school locker.

Cat. 2: Typical gun safe - S&G combination lock, 10 gage sides, door up to 1/4" thick. Will stop most casual attacks, including the majority of residential "smash and grab" burglaries. But if the bad guys come with a cutting torch, Sawzall, or are simply allowed to beat on it for a while with pick, sledge, or fire axe, they're likely to get in.

Cat. 3: Cat 2 with some level of fire protection.

Cat. 4: REAL safes, which will weigh something over a ton, maybe two, and have walls around 1" or more thick. Will resist all but a determined assault by a skilled & well-equipped bad guy. Not very common among your typical gun owner.

I have one in category #2. It's in the back of a large walk-in closet - out of the view of casual visitors - with no exterior walls. And it's loaded with enough "stuff" to make it pretty heavy. I live in a "low crime" area and have a monitored alarm, so it provides a reasonable amount of security.

But I don't believe it's absolutely secure, so I still carry insurance.

HankB wrote:I am not in the "safe" business, but here's my layman's understanding of safes . . .

Category 1: Cheap safes from places like K-Mart. They'll keep out small children and inquisitive (but not malicious!) teens, but are not much more secure than a school locker.

You can get a good "cheap" safe in many locations. They serve their purpose in certian situations. Even a "cheap" safe can and most often does have a fire rating. Sentry, Brinks, and others in the same price range. Like any other safe, they can also come without a fire rating. Fire rates are classified by the UL. IE, 350 degress for 30 minutes, 1150 degrees for 30 minutes etc....

Cat. 2: Typical gun safe - S&G combination lock, 10 gage sides, door up to 1/4" thick. Will stop most casual attacks, including the majority of residential "smash and grab" burglaries. But if the bad guys come with a cutting torch, Sawzall, or are simply allowed to beat on it for a while with pick, sledge, or fire axe, they're likely to get in.

This is not correct. A gun safe can be unrated, B rate, TL (15 and 30) Rated, TRTL rated. The lock on the safe can be either a S&G, LaGard, mechanical or electronic. Most Gun safe manufactures offer this as an option. They can be fire rated and almost all of them offer this option also. You can find specific information on each rating on line, check out the UL.
An important part of the rating is the relocker system built into the safe as well as the relocker built into the lock on the safe. If you were to remove the back cover of your S&G lock, you will see a brass lever that pops up when the cover is removed. It is pressed back down when the cover is reinstalled. The relocker (lever) blocks the bolt in the lock during a spindle attack.
Ther is also a built in relocker that is spring activated in most decent gun safes. It is independent of the lock and held in place with a pin attached to the back cover.
These are found in all safes, not only gun safes.
Cat. 3: Cat 2 with some level of fire protection.

See UL ratings. Fire protection is an option in many safes. Not just fire safes.

Cat. 4: REAL safes, which will weigh something over a ton, maybe two, and have walls around 1" or more thick. Will resist all but a determined assault by a skilled & well-equipped bad guy. Not very common among your typical gun owner.

Weight is not a factor. And yes, I find them in homes as well as busineses. A "real" safe I believe you are refering to is a TL rated safe. Yes they are all heavy and require a larger investment, but they also offer the most protection. A TL rated safe can and often has a plate steel body that is 1/2' thick. The lock is protected by hard plate, relockers and sometimes glass plates.

I have been a Vault technician and Locksmith for 25 years. I now work on safe and vaults mostly.

I have one in category #2. It's in the back of a large walk-in closet - out of the view of casual visitors - with no exterior walls. And it's loaded with enough "stuff" to make it pretty heavy. I live in a "low crime" area and have a monitored alarm, so it provides a reasonable amount of security.

But I don't believe it's absolutely secure, so I still carry insurance.

I also live in a low crime neighborhood in Sugar Land. My Service truck was stolen out of my driveway on December 18th. The criminals don't care where you live, they just care about what they can get. I have had tool boxes stolen from my garage while I was in the back yard (wish I would have caught them).
I now have video covering my driveway, yard and my mailbox. I have also installed medeco deadbolts. I am not being paranoid, I am being careful.

Ok,
I have one of the "less expensive models" but am interested in getting something better (1000-3000 range)

What would you suggest? Ft Knox, Liberty, etc?

What is good/bad about your safes? What would you do differently now that you have a safe, etc.

Garry

That demonstration is a pretty onesided representation. I agree with the comment above that installation is a very important part in the quality of security of any safe. But I know that there is probably no such thing as the absolutely 100% secure safe. If some one wants in your safe and they have the skill, the tools, and the determination they will get in.

I believe that some time must be spent in considering what level of security you need. Depending on the area your home or office is in, the skills, dedication, and reputation of the local police agency, the nature and importance of the items to be kept secure and your own lifestyle, not everyone needs a safe that costs 5 grand and weighs 2 tons.

Keeping all these things in mind I went to Wal-Mart and bought a gun CABINET for 150 bux. Don't laugh. It's all I need. It has 3 stainless steel rods that slide into reinforced points at the top, middle and bottom of the doorway. I took it home and took out the interior that was mostly for storing rifles. I installed a cantileaver shelving system to accomodate my handguns and accessories and ammunition. The shelves are adjustable and the entire arrangement can be easily rearranged.

I positioned it where I wanted it in the room and bolted it to the wall. I built a hidden compartment somewhere in the room in which I hide the key. I've asked numerous friends to try and find it and so far no one has.

I don't know how much 5,000 rounds of assorted pistol ammo weighs but I'm assuming it's considerable. That is what is in the bottom of the cabinet and would not be easy to slide around on the carpet even AFTER they have broken it out from the wall it's bolted to, Add to that the weight of the handguns and accessories in the shelves and it is Clearly not a piece of cake.

I know that those to guys with their crowbar and prybar could get into my gun cabinet.

The reason I didn't spend thousands of dollars on a real safe is partly because of what you saw in that video, They can get into a heavy and expensive one almost as easy as one like mine, Also Where I live and the VIGOROUS police department we have here give me comfort and the confidence that this is all I'll really need. I think I'm covered on my needs to keep the grandkids out of it and if a burglar should break in, unless he is there for that safe he probably won't have the tools or the time to get into it.

Oh and I know it is not fire proof. But we have a smaller safe that is fire proof for all our papers and documents.

I'm not fooling myself here. I know I'm not getting the security I would with a good quality safe. But I think I have what I need based upon the criteria mentioned above. I'm satisfied with my setup. Nothing wrong with going all out but I don't believe that everyone needs that level of security.

solaritx wrote:Ok,
I have one of the "less expensive models" but am interested in getting something better (1000-3000 range)

What would you suggest? Ft Knox, Liberty, etc?

What is good/bad about your safes? What would you do differently now that you have a safe, etc.

Garry

Either of those companies have fine products.

My first recomendation would be to ignore the glossey paint jobs. They are pretty, but they cost more and the fancy paint is an expensive option that serves no purpose. Besides, no one, other than your wife (and the person who sold it to you) should ever know its there.

Other companies build and sell good products also. Look into AMSEC. I can get you a # for someone close to you if your interested (I live up the road from you).

Make sure your safe is installed correctly. Spend the extra $ and get the Electronic Lock. I reccomend the LaGard Basic or LaGard Combogard. Some companies only offer the S&G 6120 series electronic locks. They are ok, but they confuse a lot of people when trying to change the combination. The benifet of the LaGard locks is, you can change the combination yourself, easily. I find a lot of gun safes never have the combination changed.......EVER! This is a bad thing. Most safe attacks I see are done by amatures. They knock off the lock and handle. Sometimes they beat the crud out of the safe with hammers. Make sure you bolt your safe down with the open edge against a wall. Hopefully you can bolt it down to a concrete slab.

These are just some ideas for you to think over. If you want me to, I can email you some pictures of the locks and the instructions for changing the combinations.

Keep SAFE

Hank

You will never be able to make your safe completely burglar proof. The idea is to make it take the bad guy longer to get into.

I have the Fort knox 6637 and it is a big'un. It is bolted in the back room of a detached garage to concrete slab. I keep anything of real value in there plus another 5-6k rounds of mixed ammo for weight. I also have a "decoy" in the bedroom. It is a cheap Walmart steel safe a toddler could bust open. Keep about 20 bucks and several old surplus rifles in there. Hopefully a burglar would just hit that and leave thinking he scored. i do like the electronic lock (on the Fort knox) as it has a feature where you can type in whatever length of random numbers you want as long as the first set of numbers and the last number is your actual combo. I had someone over and typed in about 40 numbers then opened it up with him watching. He was amazed i could remember that "long" combo. Was about $2400 delivered and installed.

You have the S&G electronic lock? You can enter the 1st 5 numbers and then any amount random numbers, followed by the last number. Then hit pound?.