Cops episode - 6 LEOs vs crazy man with knife

[gigag04]

The episode was on CourTV channel at 630.

It was Boston PD and call comes in that a man assaulted someone with a knife and "pedaled away on a bike."

moments later the car with cameramen finds him on a bridge, and they are the 2nd responding car. They get out, and the guy still has the kitchen knife out. In another minute or so cops are everywhere, and 6-8 cops, all with guns out. One LEO is yelling "PUT THE KNIFE DOWN" at the man.

THe man is walking AWAY from the LEOs slowly and they are slowly following him from about 10-15 ft away in a half circle.

At one point the man stops and turns kinda and makes a half lunge at one of the LEOs -which are still 10-15 away. No shots...(much to my curiousity...so much for the Tueller test). The man resumes walking away, a patrol car slowly nudges past him and cuts him off into the barrier median, an LEO smacks the crap out the mans knife holding arm with his collapsable baton (ouch) and fails to knock the knife out. The man again (cornered now by a car and cops) turns and lunges toward an LEO who fires a shot and immediately them man is dog piled.

They roll him, cuff him, and the LEO says "check him to see if I hit him" since it all went down so fast. Sure enough, one shot COM (from his pt of view) in the belly.

Chief shows up - no reprimand nothing...said he did a good job. I agree, but I think I would've "employed deadly force" the first time he lunged with a knife.

Anyone esle see this or have any thoughts?

-nick

[MoJo]

Sounds like an excellent scenario to use a TASER.

[ghentry]

This is a pretty old one that I've seen many times. I don't think they were using Tasers much, if at all, back then. This one was very scary as the officer put himself in a pretty bad situation. Seeing how the man was all alone and not endangering any other innocents, I don't see why the officer should have endangered himself as he did by closing in on the guy still armed.

[txinvestigator]

This is a pretty old one that I've seen many times. I don't think they were using Tasers much, if at all, back then. This one was very scary as the officer put himself in a pretty bad situation. Seeing how the man was all alone and not endangering any other innocents, I don't see why the officer should have endangered himself as he did by closing in on the guy still armed.

Do you suggest that they just let him go?

I have been there, done that, and the officers did a fine job. At some point, you have to decide that you are going to move in on the guy, and he either complies or gets shot.....his decision.

I had a situation once where a knife wielder was about 2 pounds away from death. When he threw his knife down, I released the trigger on my 92FS and it came waayyyyy out. I still shake my head about that one.

TASER's are not designed to be an alternative to deadly force for officers. They are designed as a tool so officers do not have to go hands on with a suspect physically resisting.

Trivia, what does the acronym TASER stand for. (try not using Google :) )

[stevie_d_64]

T - The
A - Agonizing
S - yet Stimulating to some
E - Enforcement
R - Razzle-Dazzler

Thank you...I'm here all week...

[ghentry]

Do you suggest that they just let him go?

No, they should have shot the knife out of his hand... I KID!

I'm definitely not advocating that they let him go, I just wouldn't want to see an officer take a knife if there was another way they could have taken him down without as much danger to the officer. What do I suggest? I'm not sure what other options would have been available to them at the time?

The bottom line is I'm armchair quarterbacking as I've never been in LE and I'd just rather see the BG go down hard than the LEO take a blade.

TASER's are not designed to be an alternative to deadly force for officers. They are designed as a tool so officers do not have to go hands on with a suspect physically resisting.

While this may be true, a TASER could have prevented this officer from having to get within striking distance of the knife wielding crazy.

[TxFire]

I vaguely recall that episode. Would OC have not been a viable option? There are other less than lethal options, but I presume that they had OC and likely did not have others.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I'd like to point out something else. I didn't see the episode (I don't watch COP "reality" shows or lawyer shows either) so my comment is a general one.

If the LEO's were within 10 to 15 feet of a man with a knife, they were clearly within the zone of danger. I suspect that they felt they were "safer" because of the number of guns trained on the guy, but this is most definitely a false sense of security. While more guns means a greater chance someone's round would find its way into the guy if they had to shoot, by no means does it guarantee instant incapacitation. Also, if the man had charged one of the officers, the shot angle for other officers around the semi-circle would change drastically likely putting other officers in the line of fire behind the suspect. A half-moon formation is usually a terrible tactic under these circumstances; i.e. close range, no cover, subject and officers in the same vertical plane (i.e. all standing, all prone, etc.).

This event may have had a good outcome, but it sounds like it was the result of luck or the grace of God, not good tactics. I’m glad they didn’t get hurt.

Regards,
Chas.

[gigag04]

If the LEO's were within 10 to 15 feet of a man with a knife, they were clearly within the zone of danger.

I thought this as well, but then I realized that the tueller test showed how an attacker armed with a knife could overtake and stab you before you could DRAW and then fire. These LEOs already had their guns drawn and trained on this guy so that would definately change the reaction times I would think.

This is just from what I've read on the net in the past. Is there something I've missed in regards to knife attacks? I hate knives...

-nick

[DaveT]

Hate to be the one to disagree here, but the replies above indicate some sort of thought pattern that an officer automatically wants to shoot in a situation.

Not so.... and I speak from experience. Stopped a DUI once that pulled a knife and stood before me in a threatening stance. I unholstered and trained my weapon on him. Even without the knife, he was about 6'3 and 250, I was not going to fare well in a physical confrontation with him anyway.

When he saw my weapon, he put the knife in his back pocket. I holstered and began talking with him. Just when I thought he was going to give the knife up, he got angry and pulled it out again. This cycle repeated itself three times.

Unknown to the DUI, a backup unit had arrived and another officer was walking up behind him. The next time he put the knife in his back pocket, the unseen officer blindsided him and we both wresteled him to the ground and into cuffs.

Could I have shot him ? Sure. Would I have been legally right ? Sure.

That was 20 years ago. This is a small town and I still see that man today. His son played on the high school football team with my son. I have also seen him with his grandkids. He is a real likeable fellow. Am I glad I didn't shoot him ? Yep. He just had a bad night and we encountered each other at the wrong place and the wrong time.

I still think about the family of the man I did shoot and kill when he shot at myself and a fellow officer. I regret that they have had to live without a husband, father and grandfather, but there was no other option in that situation. He shot first, missed and was training his weapon on another officer when I fired.

While some have posted above that they felt the officers acted wrong or put themselves in danger, my take after watching that same episode a few years back was that the officers were trying to do everything they could not to shoot the man.

The suspect could have been dead a half dozen times over, the officers showed restraint........ just like you would hope an officer would do if one of your loved ones ever had a bad moment.

[gigag04]

While some have posted above that they felt the officers acted wrong or put themselves in danger, my take after watching that same episode a few years back was that the officers were trying to do everything they could not to shoot the man.

The suspect could have been dead a half dozen times over, the officers showed restraint........ just like you would hope an officer would do if one of your loved ones ever had a bad moment.

I saw that too and noticed it. Thank you for pointing it out!

[Charles L. Cotton]

DaveT

If anything in my post leads people to believe I fault the officers for not shooting, let me make it clear that I do not! I wanted to address the half-moon tactic that is so dangerous, yet so instinctive. People, especially those with a combat background, instinctively tend to “flank� a suspect. On a battlefield, urban or otherwise, this is a viable tactic. But when that “battlefield� is only 20 to 30 feet wide and everyone is on the same plane, it’s a disaster waiting to happen.

As to shooting the guy, we’ve had that exact situation happen in Houston not too long ago. The complaints ran anywhere from “why didn’t you shoot the knife out of his hand,� “why didn’t you use a net,� “why didn’t you use a TASER,� “why didn’t you just have Scotty beam him up!?� A “man with a knife� call really really sucks! People simply aren’t as quick to understand having to shoot him, as they are with a man armed with a gun. It's a terrible situation for the officers.

Regards,
Chas.

[MoJo]

Trivia, what does the acronym TASER stand for. (try not using Google :) )

Thomas
A
Swift's
Electric
Rifle

The inventor of the TASER was a Tom Swift fan he got the name from the title of a Tom Swift novel. Ain't it amazin' what you learn from The History Channel?

[flintknapper]

DaveT
A “man with a knife� call really really sucks! People simply aren’t as quick to understand having to shoot him, as they are with a man armed with a gun. It's a terrible situation for the officers.
Regards,
Chas.

It is indeed "a terrible situation for the officers". I know quite a few LEO's, and I don't know of ANY that want to shoot anyone.

As you say, the "public" is not quick to understand the serious threat a person with a knife poses. LE, definitely knows. The "Tueller drill" has been around for at least 25 years, and taught to most agencies for about the last 20.

I think the officers did everything they could to avoid having to shoot him. Evidently, they felt as if they had him somewhat contained, and were trying to give him an opportunity to change his mind. The officer that struck him with the ASP apparently missed the radial nerve, or the BG might have had on a heavy coat. Anyway, after that...it was pretty much "all bets off" trying to effect another strike.

I'm sure the officers would have liked to have had some bean-bag loads and a canine unit to take him down, but... you simply have to work with what you have sometimes.

The guy is fortunate that they didn't take him out in a hail of gunfire. The U.S. does not really have a "knife culture" in the same sense as say...the Philippines, so most people don't appreciate how truly lethal... edged weapons can be.

So, you hit it on the head IMO. "Man with a knife"= this really sucks!

[txinvestigator]

Trivia, what does the acronym TASER stand for. (try not using Google :) )

Thomas
A
Swift's
Electric
Rifle

The inventor of the TASER was a Tom Swift fan he got the name from the title of a Tom Swift novel. Ain't it amazin' what you learn from The History Channel?

LOL You win the prize.