Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

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JasonH
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Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#1

Post by JasonH »

I apologize if this has been posted before. If so I'm sure the mods will lock it and slap me on my wrist. ;-)

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestof ... v.guns.cnn

That scares the heck out of me. Now, granted, if the gun really was fully auto or had a burst capability then he shouldn't be too surprised at being arrested but if a simple malfunction is enough to get you a felony and possible time in prison then I'm genuinely worried about this case.

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Re: Convinction of man for owning a faulty gun

#2

Post by propellerhead »

I've seen that posted on several gun forums already. I skimmed through the article and never caught the ATF's side. Was it really just a faulty gun? I thought these AR-15s were designed to where you can't cut file or sand anything to it to make it an auto? I thought you had to have the actual M-16 parts. [shrug]

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Re: Convinction of man for owning a faulty gun

#3

Post by melkor41 »

if your disconnector spring is not installed right or you accidently get the disconnector and the bolt catch spring mixed up, it can do doubles, triples or in some cases full auto.

you can not install m16 parts on an ar15 casually, it requires some machining to the lower receiver.

the disconnector spring has one end with a coil larger than the other but some folks still get it mixed up.


I cant get the link to open right now... and I dont know where the legal code is offhand but i also think they have to show intent.
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Keith B
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Re: Convinction of man for owning a faulty gun

#4

Post by Keith B »

I wonder if there is more to this story. Unless this is a different David R. Olofson, there is a previous case where he was arrested for concealed carry in 1994. Interesting read on the things they were observing him for. http://www.wisbar.org/res/capp/z1996/96-3569.htm Here is the LINK to the conviction, which was a misdemeanor. He has had a lot of other civil cases too.
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Re: Convinction of man for owning a faulty gun

#5

Post by The Annoyed Man »

I was standing next to my friend as he was shooting his AR15 when he experienced a slam fire in the rifle tube at the Bass Pro in Grapevine. Needless to say, they were not happy. Neither was my friend. He was testing some handloads, and he thinks that this particular load was a might hot. He pulled the trigger once, and was rewarded with a 2 round burst. It surprised the pants off of both of us, which in my case is not a pretty thing. His rifle is definitely not a fully automatic weapon. I've fired it, and it normally works just like it's supposed to.

Is it possible that this is what happened to the subject of this particular case?
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Re: Convinction of man for owning a faulty gun

#6

Post by dukalmighty »

I believe pistol primers are softer than rifle primers and take less impact from a firing pin to ignite them,I know in one case the ATF tried to get an AR to fire more than one round they used bullets with pistol primers and a few other tricks and accomplished what they wanted.If I remember right on my M16-A1 I believe the firing pin had a spring to prevent slam fires
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Re: Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#7

Post by txmatt »

http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/olofson-vs-us.htm

Here is the ATF's side of this. I can imagine the fellow who was shooting the gun was threatened with charges if he didn't testify against the owner of the gun, so I don't know how much trust I would put in his story. In short they charge that there was a third, unmarked position on the selector switch that was a position for three round burst but that it did not work well. I guess they couldn't figure it out the first time they tested it?

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Re: Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#8

Post by melkor41 »

the gun did not malfunction then.... it was a modified full auto ar-15 using m16 fire control parts which is illegal.


Even if you remove the detent pin and are able to get the normal ar15 selector to go to the 3rd position on a normal ar15 trigger+disconnector it will act as another SAFE position and not let the trigger be pulled unless it was an m16 selector and other various fire control parts.


The owner of the gun commited a crime.... the only "malfunction" is that the 3rnd burst jammed, more than likely due to it being a hackjob auto converstion.

This isnt a matter of a slam fire.. or a fault disconnector spring, if the selector went to the 3rd position it was an illegal FA conversion
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Re: Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#9

Post by tboesche »

Back in the 80's I had a Daewoo K-1A1 in .223 that would pop off a 3 round burst every once in a while. Did it to me at the military range at North Island. The range masters came running. But could not get it to burst again. I sold it shortly after that. Wasn't worht the risk
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Re: Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#10

Post by melkor41 »

tboesche wrote:Back in the 80's I had a Daewoo K-1A1 in .223 that would pop off a 3 round burst every once in a while. Did it to me at the military range at North Island. The range masters came running. But could not get it to burst again. I sold it shortly after that. Wasn't worht the risk
That sounds like a true malfunction.... firing pin protrusion slightly too much or failing disconnector spring or even soft pistol primers as mentioned before. This guy in the article was able to flip the selector to 3rd position.
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Re: Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#11

Post by Liko81 »

melkor41 wrote:the gun did not malfunction then.... it was a modified full auto ar-15 using m16 fire control parts which is illegal.
Wrong. The trigger group, selector, etc are not what make an M-16 full auto. The difference is the sear. Before this case, the BATFE had previously given opinions on other ARs that had M-16 versions of the same four parts that were replaced in the weapon tested in this case, and their response was that if it doesn't have the full-auto sear, it is not a machine gun, because the parts in question require the full-auto sear in order to achieve automatic fire.

Thus, the problem is that the ATF does not have any one litmus test of a "machine gun" versus any other case including a malfunction. They have, in the past and present, applied any one of the following definitions of a machine gun:

- A gun which fires more than one round with a single function of the trigger. (BATF definition)
- A gun which, when the trigger is depressed, continues to fire until the trigger is released or the ammunition is depleted (United States v. Fleischli)
- A gun modified with parts from a fully-automatic weapon. (This is the BATF's current position but is refuted by the "SGW letter" in which the BATF stated the opposite position, which the BATF has so far suppressed due to "private tax information". The ATF has often refused to register ARs with M-16 parts other than the auto sear because they are NOT machineguns, and yet the BATF's current position is that this weapon IS a machine gun because it has those parts but not the auto sear)
- A gun which can be modified to fire more than one round with a single function of the trigger. (USC 26-E-53-B-I-5845; the letter of the law makes ANY AR, AK, or other semi-only variant of a select-fire weapon a machinegun because parts are produced and can be bought and installed to make it fully automatic)

The ATF can use these contradictory statements almost at will to declare a weapon a "machinegun" depending on its aims. At no time is there any mention of burst-fire as the result of an unintentional failure of parts or ammunition. Thus, a kaBoom that sets off a round in the magazine has just fired more than one shot with a single pull of the triger; congratulations, you are the proud owner of a (now destroyed) machine gun and the ATF will be calling if the ruling against Olofson stands.

The ATF also has no documented testing criteria, or limit to what it can do to try to make a weapon fire automatically. If it is possible to make your rifle fire in full-auto, regardless of whether you OR the ATF know it at the time, you are in possession of a machine gun. The ATF originally fired ordinary rifle rounds to test the weapon, and could not reproduce the behavior, and thus said it's just a rifle. The testing director then told them to test again using light-primer ammunition (basically hand-loading pistol primers into rifle cartridges). Olympic Arms SPECIFICALLY STATES that the use of such ammo can cause burst-fire malfunctions and is NOT to be used in the gun, and Olofson was NOT using those rounds. The result? A machine gun. So, whether you know it or not, if there is any combination of fire settings, trigger pull weight, ammunition composition, etc that will make your AR or AK fire more than one round, you could very well be in Olofson's position.

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Re: Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#12

Post by JasonH »

Liko81, thanks for the very informative post.

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Re: Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#13

Post by melkor41 »

I am no fan of the BATF, but if someone told me flat out that the gun had a burst mode, but not to use it because "it didnt work very well" I would not be cought anywhere near the gun.

The documents on the site said that the gun had a 3rd position that the safety went to so we know the guy had fiddled with the gun. If you remove the safety detent to allow an ar15 selector go to 3rd position it will just go into safe in the 3rd position. I can take mine out later tonnight and post a youtube of how it works.

It does sound like the guy was offered a deal of "rat out this guy and tell us EVERYTHING hes done wrong.. or we pin the gun on you"

and yes.. the stuff the ATF does to guns to prove THEIR side is downright nasty.
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Re: Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#14

Post by Seburiel »

This is why I stick to bolt- and lever-action rifles - not bloody likely that they could become 'machineguns'... that's just me, though :patriot:

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Re: Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

#15

Post by WarHawk-AVG »

Seburiel wrote:This is why I stick to bolt- and lever-action rifles - not bloody likely that they could become 'machineguns'... that's just me, though :patriot:
Why?

Why should you be afraid of a group who is supposed to be an investigation entity, NOT a prosecution entity..and who have NO documented method on their investigation tactics...and who often than not purposefully try to make something behave the way its not just to get a conviction

Last time I checked it was innocent until proven guilty..not guilty until we can figure out how to make this "normal rifle" fire like a machine gun
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